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Consciousness is not there Consciousness

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is not a personal self it's not a soul

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it's phenomenal States it has a a

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precise definition by totally and

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all right this is one highly anticipated

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episode today we have a theolocution

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with Susan Blackmore and Bernardo Castro

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well what is a theologution it's a

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conversation between two people who are

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trying to understand one another's views

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and even constructively that is add to

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the so-called opponent's views in real

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time rather than destructively

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criticizing with snark and even prepared

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lines which is what unfortunately tends

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to characterize most Clashing of ideas

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so you can think of a theologution as a

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Socratic dialogue that's moderated with

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regard appreciation and fondness

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Bernardo Castro is a leading voice in

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the field of philosophy of mind he's

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also a strong advocate of what's called

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analytic idealism Bernardo argues that

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Consciousness is fundamental in nature a

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Viewpoint which is articulated in this

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probative works including why

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materialism is baloney and the idea of

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the world links to both books are in the

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description as well as links to

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everything as usual because of the

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contrasting views in my opinion this epi

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episode serves as the best at least the

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one that I've seen the best introduction

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to bernardo's ideas although this is

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only the case when one already has an

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overview of some of the theories of

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Consciousness that exist else you'll

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just be weltering and swimming now Susan

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Blackmore is a visiting professor at the

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University of Plymouth who's carved out

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a career in the study of Consciousness

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memes and evolutionary biology becoming

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one of the most influential voices in

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these domains Susan is widely recognized

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for her seminal work the meme machine in

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fact years ago I read that and that's

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how I was introduced to her work again

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links to everything that's mentioned

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will be in the description pertinent to

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today's discussion Susan's an avid

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proponent of illusionism which is more

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nuanced than simply positing that

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Consciousness is nothing more than some

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Grand Illusion we talk about that and

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she dispels this myth my name is Kurt

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chemungal and I have this podcast here

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called theories of everything where I

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use my background in math and physics to

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analyze toes from a theoretical physics

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perspective predominantly though I'm

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also interested in other approaches as

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to what is fundamental what's considered

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fundamental is there holism and

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reductionism is incorrect how about

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Consciousness and where does that come

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into play you can think of it as the

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largest Mysteries of the universe

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without already having a defined

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position that I'm advocating for or

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trying to in a contrived way steer the

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conversation toward at around 20 to the

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30 minute Mark or so there'll be a

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couple of ads this video is sponsored by

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that's coming up is a Theo location with

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Bernardo Castro and David Papineau I

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hope I'm pronouncing that correctly you

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can look up they've had a conversation

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before on YouTube so watch that and if

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you feel like there was plenty that was

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left out of that then feel free to

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comment here and I'll ask those

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questions to Bernardo and to David

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bernardo's appeared several times on the

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theories of everything channel one solo

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Behemoth four hour episode that is

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actually one of the top episodes on

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theories of everything another one with

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John vervakie in fact there are two

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parts to that conversation definitely

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don't miss the second one as you can see

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a convergence of their ideas another one

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with Christopher Langan another one with

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Donald Hoffman as well as Susan

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Schneider and another one with Sabine

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hassenfelder on super determinism this

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is Susan's First and definitely not the

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last time on this channel enjoy welcome

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Sue Susan Blackmore welcome Bernardo

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Castro again it's a privilege to be here

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with you all

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good to see you both again

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hello first time for me

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sue you may not know this but I've

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wanted to speak to you for years

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primarily on memes because I read your

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book on memes the first question is that

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I'm sure people misconstrue what

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illusionism is so do you mind rectifying

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that so that we all have a shared

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understanding as to what your

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understanding of illusionism is

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right well illusionism roughly speaking

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is

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um to say that what we normally think

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about Consciousness all the assumptions

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we make we're wrong we're deluded about

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the nature of consciousness

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there are lots of ways you can go with

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it so more formally the idea is this so

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the problem of Consciousness is

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basically the mind-body problem How can

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there be my experience of looking at at

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um Kurt on the screen and the color of

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his skin and the walls and the chair

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behind and all this experience as well

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as neurons that in some way are related

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to that now I'm being very cautious

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there and saying related to that because

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then

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um in 1994

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um the the term the hard problem was

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invented and that that is

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um Dave Chalmers uh describes that as

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the problem or the question of how

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subjective experience arises from uh

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brain activity

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now as soon as you say that you're

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falling into some kind of dualism and he

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and and he himself Dave is is a kind of

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dualist a very subtle sort of dualist

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but the idea of illusionism is that's

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the wrong problem we're so deluded that

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we imagine Consciousness is something

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that arises from brain activity but that

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just simply doesn't work and that's why

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we've not got anywhere in in

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Consciousness studies with with really

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trying to solve the hard problem if it's

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the wrong the wrong problem what is the

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right problem it is the illusion problem

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in other words or otherwise known as The

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Meta problem of Consciousness it is to

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understand how we got so deluded how we

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have invented all these Illusions about

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the nature of Consciousness and we're

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wrong so illusionism is is a kind of way

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of approaching the problem of

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Consciousness it's not a theory

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to kind of line up against Global

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workspace or IIT or whatever it is a way

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of approaching it that says we won't get

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anywhere unless we've understood how we

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got into this model in the first place

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so illusionists have a go at describing

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the illusions

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does that help yeah well before Bernardo

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comes in I constantly hear that hey if

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Consciousness is an illusion and this

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may be one of those misinterpretations

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but people would say Well it to The

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Illusionist if Consciousness is an

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illusion who is the illusion occurring

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to so then what is your response to that

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and then Bernardo please you'll be able

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to comment on whatever you would like to

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well the the the whom it's two

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um is all part of the illusion because

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um if you think of it this way um what

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is a self if the natural way to imagine

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what a self is or who am I am

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is to imagine what dandenic calls the

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Cartesian theater that is you imagine

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and it's I think most of us are like

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that most of the time a lot of

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meditation you know I've been meditating

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for more than 40 years and it blows

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apart it to some extent

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um maybe eventually completely

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um this illusion that I'm sitting inside

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my head I'm looking out through my eyes

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to see the world I'm listening through

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my ears to hear the world and I am in

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control I have a stream of conscious

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experience and I have free will which

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enables me to you know manipulate myself

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and the world or this body and the world

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so this false idea of the self goes

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along with illusionism so who is being

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deluded well the whole thing is is a

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delusion the whole thing is a

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representation

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constructed by information processing

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system will get set me right on this I'm

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sure

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um the whole thing is an illusion about

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self and other the separation of me and

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other people the separation of me and

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the world and that gives rise to all

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these false ideas about the nature of

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consciousness

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okay Bernardo what is it you agree with

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and do you perhaps disagree with and

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perhaps just want to comment on no there

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are a lot of things that I agree with

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including the illusion of the person of

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self I think there is no personal self

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it's just not there at all

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um the illusion of dualism I don't think

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there are two things uh material brain

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and phenomenal states that are generated

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by the material brain

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um but for the position of illusionism

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to have use it it has to be specific and

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and when you get people talking

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specifically about it like lately Keith

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Frankish Frankish has been talking about

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it rather specifically then it has

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become has talked specifically about it

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for quite a while

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the claim is that the way illusionism

276
00:10:19,009 --> 00:10:16,380
circumvents the hard problem is by

277
00:10:22,850 --> 00:10:19,019
saying that the nominal States or

278
00:10:25,070 --> 00:10:22,860
experiential qualities do not exist that

279
00:10:28,430 --> 00:10:25,080
they are illusions

280
00:10:30,769 --> 00:10:28,440
but then the problem is illusionism is

281
00:10:33,530 --> 00:10:30,779
then either coherent

282
00:10:36,650 --> 00:10:33,540
or it is useless

283
00:10:38,449 --> 00:10:36,660
um it is useless if we say

284
00:10:41,930 --> 00:10:38,459
um

285
00:10:44,990 --> 00:10:41,940
phenomenal States aren't what they seem

286
00:10:47,870 --> 00:10:45,000
that's why they are an illusion

287
00:10:49,730 --> 00:10:47,880
this is coherent but it's useless

288
00:10:51,650 --> 00:10:49,740
because it doesn't do anything about the

289
00:10:54,050 --> 00:10:51,660
heart problem of Consciousness because

290
00:10:54,889 --> 00:10:54,060
the seaming is already a phenomenal

291
00:10:57,110 --> 00:10:54,899
state

292
00:10:59,630 --> 00:10:57,120
that there is an illusion an illusion is

293
00:11:01,670 --> 00:10:59,640
a phenomenal State an illusion in so far

294
00:11:03,829 --> 00:11:01,680
as it is experienced and if it's not

295
00:11:06,350 --> 00:11:03,839
experienced it's not an illusion it's

296
00:11:08,389 --> 00:11:06,360
already an instance of that which one is

297
00:11:09,530 --> 00:11:08,399
trying to get rid of

298
00:11:12,550 --> 00:11:09,540
now

299
00:11:15,050 --> 00:11:12,560
illusionism would be useful if it said

300
00:11:17,810 --> 00:11:15,060
phenomenal states are an illusion in the

301
00:11:23,030 --> 00:11:17,820
sense that they don't really exist they

302
00:11:25,610 --> 00:11:23,040
are edited digests of neuronal processes

303
00:11:28,310 --> 00:11:25,620
and that's why our experiences don't

304
00:11:30,889 --> 00:11:28,320
look like neurons firings and this is

305
00:11:34,430 --> 00:11:30,899
Danny Dennis by the way because our

306
00:11:36,170 --> 00:11:34,440
experience is an edited digest of the

307
00:11:40,550 --> 00:11:36,180
neuronal firings

308
00:11:42,949 --> 00:11:40,560
now this is incoherent because there is

309
00:11:44,090 --> 00:11:42,959
an obvious infinite regress and it goes

310
00:11:47,569 --> 00:11:44,100
as follows

311
00:11:49,550 --> 00:11:47,579
what is that and its digest well it can

312
00:11:51,710 --> 00:11:49,560
only be neuronal processes because for

313
00:11:55,730 --> 00:11:51,720
The Illusionist there is nothing but

314
00:11:58,449 --> 00:11:55,740
neuronal processes so the edit digest of

315
00:12:00,710 --> 00:11:58,459
neuronal processes are themselves

316
00:12:04,069 --> 00:12:00,720
neuronal processes

317
00:12:05,990 --> 00:12:04,079
so why doesn't the edit digest look like

318
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:06,000
neuronal processes

319
00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:09,120
well because then you have a meta edit

320
00:12:13,250 --> 00:12:10,560
Digest

321
00:12:16,250 --> 00:12:13,260
but that too can only be neuronal

322
00:12:18,829 --> 00:12:16,260
processes so you need a Meta Meta added

323
00:12:19,730 --> 00:12:18,839
digest and you fall into Infinite

324
00:12:22,430 --> 00:12:19,740
regress

325
00:12:25,069 --> 00:12:22,440
so my position is illusionism has to be

326
00:12:26,449 --> 00:12:25,079
made specific otherwise we are just we

327
00:12:28,490 --> 00:12:26,459
can talk about anything I'm an

328
00:12:32,090 --> 00:12:28,500
Illusionist I think the personal self is

329
00:12:34,370 --> 00:12:32,100
an illusion but like Antonio damasio

330
00:12:36,350 --> 00:12:34,380
claims and I think he is writing that

331
00:12:38,449 --> 00:12:36,360
claim the problems that he conflates

332
00:12:41,090 --> 00:12:38,459
that with the claim that Consciousness

333
00:12:42,829 --> 00:12:41,100
is not there Consciousness is not a

334
00:12:45,829 --> 00:12:42,839
personal self it's not a soul it's

335
00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:45,839
phenomenal States it has a a precise

336
00:12:49,970 --> 00:12:47,760
definition so you have to make it

337
00:12:52,250 --> 00:12:49,980
specific and the moment you make it

338
00:12:54,110 --> 00:12:52,260
specific it's either relevant or it's

339
00:12:57,250 --> 00:12:54,120
incoherent

340
00:13:00,170 --> 00:12:57,260
I totally and utterly disagree with you

341
00:13:02,050 --> 00:13:00,180
the one thing that you that I do pick up

342
00:13:04,790 --> 00:13:02,060
on that I should have said myself was

343
00:13:06,590 --> 00:13:04,800
look at illusion

344
00:13:08,090 --> 00:13:06,600
um in the dictionary because what

345
00:13:10,430 --> 00:13:08,100
happened was Dan Dennett and I

346
00:13:12,350 --> 00:13:10,440
frequently used to get accused of saying

347
00:13:15,590 --> 00:13:12,360
Consciousness doesn't exist I'm like

348
00:13:19,850 --> 00:13:15,600
what look you know ah

349
00:13:23,810 --> 00:13:21,650
some dictionaries and looked up illusion

350
00:13:25,670 --> 00:13:23,820
and and as you described it it means

351
00:13:28,490 --> 00:13:25,680
something that is not what it seems to

352
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,500
be and that is all illusionism is saying

353
00:13:32,690 --> 00:13:30,720
now illusionism is not claiming as I

354
00:13:34,730 --> 00:13:32,700
said before it's not claiming to be

355
00:13:37,370 --> 00:13:34,740
specific it's not claiming to be a

356
00:13:39,949 --> 00:13:37,380
theory that can be tested against other

357
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:39,959
theories like IIT or higher order

358
00:13:43,370 --> 00:13:41,279
thoughts or you know all the other

359
00:13:46,430 --> 00:13:43,380
theories of Consciousness it's an

360
00:13:48,350 --> 00:13:46,440
approach that says we've got it so badly

361
00:13:49,790 --> 00:13:48,360
wrong we need to start again from the

362
00:13:52,129 --> 00:13:49,800
beginning now one way to start again

363
00:13:53,810 --> 00:13:52,139
might be to idealism well I'm sure come

364
00:13:56,090 --> 00:13:53,820
on to that it wouldn't be the way that I

365
00:13:58,009 --> 00:13:56,100
go but there may be other ways to go but

366
00:13:59,449 --> 00:13:58,019
you said unless it's specific it can't

367
00:14:01,430 --> 00:13:59,459
solve the hard problem but it's not

368
00:14:03,530 --> 00:14:01,440
trying to solve the hard problem it's

369
00:14:05,090 --> 00:14:03,540
trying to say look the hard problem is

370
00:14:08,210 --> 00:14:05,100
completely wrong because it's deal is

371
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:08,220
from the start and it asks us to solve a

372
00:14:12,790 --> 00:14:10,800
problem that doesn't really exist what

373
00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:12,800
we need to do is work out

374
00:14:19,490 --> 00:14:17,040
just how how we are imagining our

375
00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:19,500
Consciousness to be and see why that

376
00:14:23,090 --> 00:14:21,600
happened now you talked about you said

377
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:23,100
something like an Illusionist says

378
00:14:28,430 --> 00:14:26,399
subjective states don't exist well I I

379
00:14:29,690 --> 00:14:28,440
mean the thing is illusionism is not one

380
00:14:31,310 --> 00:14:29,700
Theory so there are lots of us doing

381
00:14:34,069 --> 00:14:31,320
different things thinking in different

382
00:14:36,050 --> 00:14:34,079
ways but I wouldn't say that subjective

383
00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:36,060
states don't exist I mean as long as

384
00:14:41,150 --> 00:14:38,240
there is a subject I.E a

385
00:14:44,210 --> 00:14:41,160
self-construction a mental model a

386
00:14:46,370 --> 00:14:44,220
representation of a self and there seems

387
00:14:47,629 --> 00:14:46,380
to be a world out there then that's a

388
00:14:49,790 --> 00:14:47,639
subjective state

389
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:49,800
but it's not in my mind something that

390
00:14:52,970 --> 00:14:51,600
the brain generates

391
00:14:55,370 --> 00:14:52,980
um I mean the brain is constructing

392
00:14:57,290 --> 00:14:55,380
representations and so maybe we need to

393
00:14:59,210 --> 00:14:57,300
ask well why is there something it's

394
00:15:00,710 --> 00:14:59,220
like to be a representation and then you

395
00:15:01,970 --> 00:15:00,720
think well a representation says telling

396
00:15:03,889 --> 00:15:01,980
you what it's like isn't it it's a

397
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:03,899
representation of that tree and that you

398
00:15:09,590 --> 00:15:05,760
know whatever

399
00:15:11,509 --> 00:15:09,600
um so I I think you're I I can

400
00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:11,519
understand what you're saying about it

401
00:15:17,210 --> 00:15:14,160
needs to be precise but I I and it isn't

402
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:17,220
because it isn't claiming to be it's not

403
00:15:22,850 --> 00:15:20,160
useless because it will help us I

404
00:15:25,069 --> 00:15:22,860
believe to see through the problems of

405
00:15:27,710 --> 00:15:25,079
the other theories which are not solving

406
00:15:29,449 --> 00:15:27,720
that all the other theories claim to be

407
00:15:32,990 --> 00:15:29,459
approaching at least to the hard problem

408
00:15:35,210 --> 00:15:33,000
and illusionism doesn't and I think in

409
00:15:37,370 --> 00:15:35,220
that sense in a very small way I'm not

410
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:37,380
claiming a huge amount for it really

411
00:15:41,810 --> 00:15:38,880
um but I think it's the way forward to

412
00:15:45,170 --> 00:15:41,820
go to work out why and how the illusion

413
00:15:47,470 --> 00:15:45,180
appears Illusions illusions of self of

414
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:47,480
Consciousness and free will all of them

415
00:15:51,889 --> 00:15:50,399
what is illusionism for you if you can

416
00:15:53,870 --> 00:15:51,899
be precise I mean that there are

417
00:15:55,970 --> 00:15:53,880
Illusions going on it's trivial of

418
00:15:59,090 --> 00:15:55,980
course there are the the Consciousness

419
00:16:01,189 --> 00:15:59,100
may not be what it seems it's trivial of

420
00:16:02,750 --> 00:16:01,199
course there are many things we think we

421
00:16:05,449 --> 00:16:02,760
experience but actually it's something

422
00:16:08,090 --> 00:16:05,459
else going on so what is this the the

423
00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:08,100
philosophical metaphysical relevance of

424
00:16:13,790 --> 00:16:10,399
the illusionism and how do you specify

425
00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:13,800
precisely what the claim is because so

426
00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:17,279
far you you just hand waved around the

427
00:16:20,569 --> 00:16:18,600
dictionary meaning of the word

428
00:16:24,170 --> 00:16:20,579
illusionism so so what is the

429
00:16:27,769 --> 00:16:24,180
illusionism illusionism specifically

430
00:16:29,990 --> 00:16:27,779
well for me it is

431
00:16:32,329 --> 00:16:30,000
I I can't say any more than I've I've

432
00:16:34,850 --> 00:16:32,339
really said because I don't know where

433
00:16:36,530 --> 00:16:34,860
it's going I play around with all sorts

434
00:16:38,329 --> 00:16:36,540
of possible solutions I mean I've

435
00:16:39,410 --> 00:16:38,339
thought a lot about idealism I've

436
00:16:41,569 --> 00:16:39,420
thought about a lot about different

437
00:16:44,210 --> 00:16:41,579
kinds of pan psychism I've thought about

438
00:16:46,670 --> 00:16:44,220
all sorts of other things that maybe if

439
00:16:49,670 --> 00:16:46,680
we can see through the Illusions

440
00:16:52,850 --> 00:16:49,680
um we will understand how that works now

441
00:16:55,790 --> 00:16:52,860
I would say this if I look around at

442
00:17:00,490 --> 00:16:55,800
this world now

443
00:17:04,130 --> 00:17:00,500
um there seems to be a self and a world

444
00:17:06,530 --> 00:17:04,140
there isn't something else I mean a

445
00:17:08,210 --> 00:17:06,540
materialist will say well that you know

446
00:17:10,610 --> 00:17:08,220
ultimately there's some ultimate

447
00:17:12,409 --> 00:17:10,620
underlying whatever it is

448
00:17:14,510 --> 00:17:12,419
um uh with the forces of nature and

449
00:17:16,429 --> 00:17:14,520
whatever and this is arising from that

450
00:17:18,650 --> 00:17:16,439
and there is a sort of natural

451
00:17:20,870 --> 00:17:18,660
separation between

452
00:17:23,329 --> 00:17:20,880
um experience and the world that we're

453
00:17:25,850 --> 00:17:23,339
experiencing that seems to me that's

454
00:17:28,370 --> 00:17:25,860
part of what the illusion is and how do

455
00:17:30,409 --> 00:17:28,380
we get by that it seems to me that

456
00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:30,419
that's what you're trying to do is is to

457
00:17:33,530 --> 00:17:31,679
get past that

458
00:17:34,549 --> 00:17:33,540
I don't have an answer so I mean you're

459
00:17:37,010 --> 00:17:34,559
you're both going to be really

460
00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:37,020
frustrated with me because I'm not going

461
00:17:41,150 --> 00:17:39,120
to say that I have an answer that to set

462
00:17:43,669 --> 00:17:41,160
against your answer I'm just saying that

463
00:17:46,190 --> 00:17:43,679
we're so deeply confused we have to

464
00:17:48,950 --> 00:17:46,200
throw out an awful lot and and start

465
00:17:50,990 --> 00:17:48,960
again I'm sorry if that is not you know

466
00:17:54,110 --> 00:17:51,000
not enough it's not enough meat if you

467
00:17:56,090 --> 00:17:54,120
like but it's very interesting um we've

468
00:17:59,630 --> 00:17:56,100
both mentioned Dennett I mean back in

469
00:18:01,250 --> 00:17:59,640
1991 in Consciousness explained the book

470
00:18:03,890 --> 00:18:01,260
that so many people say should be called

471
00:18:06,110 --> 00:18:03,900
Consciousness explained away that means

472
00:18:10,850 --> 00:18:06,120
they haven't got what he's trying to do

473
00:18:13,789 --> 00:18:10,860
at all that book was full of uh traps

474
00:18:15,529 --> 00:18:13,799
that you can fall into the Cartesian

475
00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:15,539
theater I mentioned is just one of them

476
00:18:20,930 --> 00:18:18,240
but for example there's a very very

477
00:18:23,390 --> 00:18:20,940
common idea in most of Consciousness

478
00:18:25,970 --> 00:18:23,400
studies a lot of the research

479
00:18:27,950 --> 00:18:25,980
um which is that some processes in the

480
00:18:30,650 --> 00:18:27,960
brain are conscious and some other

481
00:18:33,770 --> 00:18:30,660
processes in the brain are not conscious

482
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:33,780
now what on Earth could this mean

483
00:18:38,510 --> 00:18:36,480
um do some have qualier attached

484
00:18:39,830 --> 00:18:38,520
um and some don't to some sort of

485
00:18:40,370 --> 00:18:39,840
magically

486
00:18:43,909 --> 00:18:40,380
um

487
00:18:46,669 --> 00:18:43,919
it it you know uh give rise to ex

488
00:18:50,090 --> 00:18:46,679
produce

489
00:18:53,930 --> 00:18:50,100
um something called experience

490
00:18:56,390 --> 00:18:53,940
um uh or colors or or any kind of

491
00:18:58,669 --> 00:18:56,400
experience it it doesn't really make any

492
00:19:01,250 --> 00:18:58,679
sense that's just one of them but that

493
00:19:03,230 --> 00:19:01,260
whole thing has led to this search for

494
00:19:06,590 --> 00:19:03,240
the neural correlates of Consciousness

495
00:19:08,810 --> 00:19:06,600
now I think as an Illusionist

496
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:08,820
that that is one of the things that

497
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:11,280
illusionism helps you to see and that

498
00:19:16,130 --> 00:19:14,160
danit's work has helped me to see

499
00:19:18,650 --> 00:19:16,140
um that that is a false distinction

500
00:19:20,330 --> 00:19:18,660
there there are not conscious and

501
00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:20,340
unconscious processes on the brain it's

502
00:19:25,010 --> 00:19:22,559
a category mistake if you like

503
00:19:27,470 --> 00:19:25,020
so those are the kind of things that I

504
00:19:29,570 --> 00:19:27,480
find helpful in digging down and digging

505
00:19:31,490 --> 00:19:29,580
down into the problem and hoping that

506
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:31,500
something will become clearer than it is

507
00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:32,400
now

508
00:19:36,049 --> 00:19:34,260
and it's not to deny that there's

509
00:19:37,850 --> 00:19:36,059
experience that's what we're trying to

510
00:19:40,010 --> 00:19:37,860
struggle with

511
00:19:42,169 --> 00:19:40,020
Sue briefly are you a materialist or you

512
00:19:44,210 --> 00:19:42,179
don't subscribe to that no I'm not a

513
00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:44,220
materialist because I'm probably for

514
00:19:49,970 --> 00:19:47,520
probably the same reasons as Bernardo

515
00:19:52,850 --> 00:19:49,980
um it doesn't work I mean it it gives

516
00:19:56,090 --> 00:19:52,860
rise to the hard problem which is to my

517
00:19:58,490 --> 00:19:56,100
mind an idiot problem it's you know it

518
00:20:00,950 --> 00:19:58,500
doesn't make sense to say that that

519
00:20:03,710 --> 00:20:00,960
experience arises from brain processes

520
00:20:06,830 --> 00:20:03,720
either it's got to be brain processes in

521
00:20:08,750 --> 00:20:06,840
some way or we've got to have some other

522
00:20:10,789 --> 00:20:08,760
kind of theory

523
00:20:13,789 --> 00:20:10,799
um does that kind of answer sure

524
00:20:15,049 --> 00:20:13,799
Bernardo

525
00:20:17,270 --> 00:20:15,059
um

526
00:20:21,470 --> 00:20:17,280
I think the last comment you made is is

527
00:20:23,150 --> 00:20:21,480
almost ends the debate we can now just

528
00:20:24,770 --> 00:20:23,160
Converse

529
00:20:27,110 --> 00:20:24,780
um it's a lot sorry I didn't I didn't

530
00:20:28,970 --> 00:20:27,120
the last comment you made that

531
00:20:31,490 --> 00:20:28,980
materialism doesn't work because of the

532
00:20:33,289 --> 00:20:31,500
heart problem it sort of ends the debate

533
00:20:34,970 --> 00:20:33,299
we can now just I'm not saying

534
00:20:36,830 --> 00:20:34,980
naturalism doesn't work that's a

535
00:20:39,049 --> 00:20:36,840
different statement isn't it naturalism

536
00:20:41,870 --> 00:20:39,059
is not the same as materialism I said

537
00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:41,880
materialism oh sorry sorry I am a

538
00:20:48,289 --> 00:20:46,080
naturalist too right fine

539
00:20:50,090 --> 00:20:48,299
um I didn't mean when I asked the

540
00:20:52,669 --> 00:20:50,100
question that you'd be more specific I

541
00:20:55,370 --> 00:20:52,679
didn't mean to to ask you to give me a

542
00:20:56,810 --> 00:20:55,380
metaphysical Theory and let alone a

543
00:20:59,510 --> 00:20:56,820
complete one

544
00:21:01,130 --> 00:20:59,520
um I asked you to specify the hypothesis

545
00:21:03,770 --> 00:21:01,140
you are defending because I can only

546
00:21:05,750 --> 00:21:03,780
agree or disagree if I know what it is

547
00:21:07,850 --> 00:21:05,760
that you are defending what it is that

548
00:21:11,390 --> 00:21:07,860
your position is

549
00:21:13,789 --> 00:21:11,400
um but as you just said what you call

550
00:21:16,130 --> 00:21:13,799
illusionism is not what

551
00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:16,140
the vast majority at least of

552
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:17,760
philosophers out there writing about

553
00:21:23,210 --> 00:21:20,400
illusionism consider illusionism to be

554
00:21:26,930 --> 00:21:23,220
the the relevance of illusionism in

555
00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:26,940
philosophy today is the attempt to deny

556
00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:30,240
the existence of phenomenal states of

557
00:21:38,450 --> 00:21:36,890
because I'm not a philosopher I know

558
00:21:40,610 --> 00:21:38,460
more about psychologists than than

559
00:21:43,970 --> 00:21:40,620
philosophers but who is saying that that

560
00:21:46,490 --> 00:21:43,980
these states don't exist uh Keith

561
00:21:49,250 --> 00:21:46,500
Frankish says that there is an important

562
00:21:51,770 --> 00:21:49,260
sense in which experiential states do

563
00:21:54,169 --> 00:21:51,780
not have phenomenal properties that's

564
00:21:56,149 --> 00:21:54,179
what he says they do not have phenomenal

565
00:21:57,470 --> 00:21:56,159
properties as in descriptions of qualia

566
00:21:59,750 --> 00:21:57,480
he doesn't say they don't exist the

567
00:22:02,450 --> 00:21:59,760
nominal states are phenomenal properties

568
00:22:04,190 --> 00:22:02,460
if states do not have phenomenal

569
00:22:07,310 --> 00:22:04,200
properties they are not phenomenal

570
00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:07,320
states that you cannot argue out of it

571
00:22:11,630 --> 00:22:09,840
and microgracia you ask me for examples

572
00:22:14,630 --> 00:22:11,640
so I'm giving you examples let me answer

573
00:22:16,970 --> 00:22:14,640
Michael graciano is on record saying

574
00:22:19,610 --> 00:22:16,980
Consciousness does not exist it's

575
00:22:22,130 --> 00:22:19,620
something that doesn't happen so that's

576
00:22:25,250 --> 00:22:22,140
what is being peddled out there and

577
00:22:27,470 --> 00:22:25,260
Keith is is quite explicit he although

578
00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:27,480
he dances an impossible dance because

579
00:22:33,230 --> 00:22:29,700
what he says is that

580
00:22:34,610 --> 00:22:33,240
we think we have phenomenal States when

581
00:22:38,750 --> 00:22:34,620
we introspect

582
00:22:40,789 --> 00:22:38,760
because everything happens as though we

583
00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:40,799
had phenomenal States

584
00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:42,720
but we don't

585
00:22:49,250 --> 00:22:45,840
the problem is that the nominal states

586
00:22:53,390 --> 00:22:49,260
are the only instance of something that

587
00:22:56,870 --> 00:22:53,400
the seeming of it is already it the

588
00:23:00,310 --> 00:22:56,880
illusion of it is already it and after

589
00:23:04,490 --> 00:23:00,320
he goes through a tortuous conceptual

590
00:23:06,430 --> 00:23:04,500
acrobatic acrobatics he says but yes we

591
00:23:08,390 --> 00:23:06,440
don't have the answer yet for how

592
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:08,400
non-phenomenal states can represent

593
00:23:12,830 --> 00:23:10,799
phenomenal States well that's the only

594
00:23:15,350 --> 00:23:12,840
question that matters that's the

595
00:23:18,169 --> 00:23:15,360
question that started the whole thing so

596
00:23:21,649 --> 00:23:18,179
if you ask me Susan I think illusionism

597
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:21,659
is a [\h__\h] show in philosophy it's just a

598
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:24,240
bunch of vague hand-waving conceptual

599
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:27,360
acrobatics and contortions that only

600
00:23:33,230 --> 00:23:30,240
postpone the problem and hide it behind

601
00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:33,240
an absolute absolute lack of clarity of

602
00:23:39,770 --> 00:23:36,480
thinking now all materialism it's the

603
00:23:41,210 --> 00:23:39,780
only game in town because given the hard

604
00:23:43,370 --> 00:23:41,220
problem of Consciousness the

605
00:23:45,950 --> 00:23:43,380
irreducibility of qualities to to

606
00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:45,960
quantitative parameters you have to find

607
00:23:50,270 --> 00:23:48,480
a way to argue that phenomenal States in

608
00:23:52,909 --> 00:23:50,280
a very significant sense are not there

609
00:23:54,529 --> 00:23:52,919
so you end up dancing this dance in

610
00:23:56,510 --> 00:23:54,539
which people say well of course there

611
00:23:58,250 --> 00:23:56,520
are subjective States we can't deny that

612
00:24:00,049 --> 00:23:58,260
and then they proceed to argue that

613
00:24:02,270 --> 00:24:00,059
there aren't subjective States

614
00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:02,280
what the hell is this that's why I keep

615
00:24:07,310 --> 00:24:04,500
asking you to be specific and precise

616
00:24:09,890 --> 00:24:07,320
because illusionism is now so slippery

617
00:24:12,169 --> 00:24:09,900
that whatever you think it is it is and

618
00:24:13,490 --> 00:24:12,179
you argue against that the Defenders

619
00:24:16,610 --> 00:24:13,500
will say well that's not what I mean

620
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:16,620
what is it that what the hell then is it

621
00:24:22,010 --> 00:24:19,440
that you mean and my my conclusion is

622
00:24:25,730 --> 00:24:22,020
what I said from the beginning it is

623
00:24:27,529 --> 00:24:25,740
either useful or it is coherent it

624
00:24:29,990 --> 00:24:27,539
doesn't go both ways now I understand

625
00:24:33,710 --> 00:24:30,000
that what you consider to be illusionism

626
00:24:35,930 --> 00:24:33,720
is a a much less specific thing you are

627
00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:35,940
just focused on the dictionary meaning

628
00:24:39,649 --> 00:24:37,440
of the word illusion and you're saying

629
00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:39,659
well there are Illusions yes there are

630
00:24:44,570 --> 00:24:41,700
Illusions and seeing through them can

631
00:24:49,010 --> 00:24:44,580
help us yes saying through our Illusions

632
00:24:51,710 --> 00:24:49,020
can help us but it's almost the issue

633
00:24:54,049 --> 00:24:51,720
you see it's it's completely true it

634
00:24:55,730 --> 00:24:54,059
says nothing it's not doing anything

635
00:24:57,649 --> 00:24:55,740
when you talk about Illusions like that

636
00:24:59,270 --> 00:24:57,659
you seem to be talking and earlier as

637
00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:59,280
well about

638
00:25:03,529 --> 00:25:00,320
um

639
00:25:05,210 --> 00:25:03,539
perception reality kind of errors and

640
00:25:06,830 --> 00:25:05,220
this isn't like that this is this is

641
00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:06,840
having an illusion about the whole

642
00:25:11,090 --> 00:25:09,120
nature of every moment of experience

643
00:25:14,090 --> 00:25:11,100
that we have

644
00:25:16,789 --> 00:25:14,100
um going back to Frankish

645
00:25:19,130 --> 00:25:16,799
um in that uh book that special issue of

646
00:25:21,490 --> 00:25:19,140
Journal of Consciousness studies you may

647
00:25:24,649 --> 00:25:21,500
see that in the beginning of my piece I

648
00:25:27,110 --> 00:25:24,659
dissociate from his idea that

649
00:25:29,029 --> 00:25:27,120
um that experiences don't have the

650
00:25:31,490 --> 00:25:29,039
states don't have phenomenal properties

651
00:25:34,549 --> 00:25:31,500
because I I can't go along with him on

652
00:25:36,409 --> 00:25:34,559
that and so in a way I'm weaker in my

653
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:36,419
argument but

654
00:25:41,570 --> 00:25:39,360
um and you can criticize me for that but

655
00:25:43,549 --> 00:25:41,580
I still think it's essential for us to

656
00:25:45,289 --> 00:25:43,559
tackle the current theories all of which

657
00:25:47,090 --> 00:25:45,299
fall into these kind of traps I mean I

658
00:25:48,590 --> 00:25:47,100
talk about one of them and the whole

659
00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:48,600
hunt for the neural correlates of

660
00:25:52,730 --> 00:25:50,400
Consciousness again and again people are

661
00:25:53,390 --> 00:25:52,740
falling into the traps that then it laid

662
00:25:56,510 --> 00:25:53,400
out

663
00:25:58,909 --> 00:25:56,520
but you mentioned Michael Graziano

664
00:26:01,490 --> 00:25:58,919
um and it's very interesting that he

665
00:26:04,610 --> 00:26:01,500
refuses to be called an Illusionist now

666
00:26:06,769 --> 00:26:04,620
he's probably being quite canny here and

667
00:26:08,930 --> 00:26:06,779
it may pay off because people don't like

668
00:26:12,350 --> 00:26:08,940
the word illusionism and he doesn't want

669
00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:12,360
to be associated with it but I think his

670
00:26:16,669 --> 00:26:14,640
theory is absolutely a version of

671
00:26:18,289 --> 00:26:16,679
illusionism and I think it's the best

672
00:26:21,169 --> 00:26:18,299
theory we've got at the moment although

673
00:26:23,930 --> 00:26:21,179
it doesn't solve all the problems but he

674
00:26:27,110 --> 00:26:23,940
is basically saying

675
00:26:29,149 --> 00:26:27,120
um just as we have a body schemer so so

676
00:26:30,350 --> 00:26:29,159
his theory for anyone listening is

677
00:26:36,049 --> 00:26:30,360
attention

678
00:26:37,310 --> 00:26:36,059
idea of a schema is quite important I'm

679
00:26:39,529 --> 00:26:37,320
particularly interested in the body

680
00:26:43,070 --> 00:26:39,539
schema which you use to compare with it

681
00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:43,080
so all the time our body are break the

682
00:26:48,110 --> 00:26:46,260
whole nervous system is constructing

683
00:26:49,850 --> 00:26:48,120
um our model or representation of where

684
00:26:51,830 --> 00:26:49,860
our body is and what it's doing this is

685
00:26:54,289 --> 00:26:51,840
called the body schema I'm particularly

686
00:26:56,090 --> 00:26:54,299
interested in this because we now know

687
00:26:58,250 --> 00:26:56,100
that this is what goes awry in an

688
00:26:59,930 --> 00:26:58,260
out-of-body experience and I've done a

689
00:27:02,390 --> 00:26:59,940
lot of work on upper body and near-death

690
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:02,400
experiences and so on so I'm very

691
00:27:08,029 --> 00:27:04,320
familiar with that idea now the idea of

692
00:27:10,490 --> 00:27:08,039
an attention schema is that any

693
00:27:13,370 --> 00:27:10,500
um complex information processing system

694
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:13,380
has a divert energy of resources to

695
00:27:17,750 --> 00:27:14,880
different things all over the place and

696
00:27:21,470 --> 00:27:17,760
we call this attention in in humans and

697
00:27:25,190 --> 00:27:21,480
other animals and that

698
00:27:28,130 --> 00:27:25,200
um experience at any time is what is

699
00:27:29,690 --> 00:27:28,140
represented in the attention schema now

700
00:27:32,510 --> 00:27:29,700
this is an interesting way of going

701
00:27:34,669 --> 00:27:32,520
about it because it's not having an

702
00:27:37,730 --> 00:27:34,679
outside world with objects that then

703
00:27:38,810 --> 00:27:37,740
have to have properties that we to have

704
00:27:41,210 --> 00:27:38,820
phenomenal properties because we're

705
00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:41,220
looking at an object it's it's mapping

706
00:27:45,769 --> 00:27:43,440
or representing the attention schema

707
00:27:47,930 --> 00:27:45,779
instead now whether this gets us

708
00:27:49,730 --> 00:27:47,940
anywhere I don't know but I've spent

709
00:27:52,850 --> 00:27:49,740
quite a lot of time playing around with

710
00:27:55,010 --> 00:27:52,860
the idea of observing in different

711
00:27:57,529 --> 00:27:55,020
states of Consciousness

712
00:27:59,630 --> 00:27:57,539
um whether it feels like

713
00:28:01,370 --> 00:27:59,640
um an attention schema and that's quite

714
00:28:03,470 --> 00:28:01,380
fun I've been doing the same with um

715
00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:03,480
predictive processing Theory and active

716
00:28:08,029 --> 00:28:05,640
inference and so on which kind of does

717
00:28:10,370 --> 00:28:08,039
slightly relate to it

718
00:28:12,010 --> 00:28:10,380
um and this leads me to another thought

719
00:28:14,570 --> 00:28:12,020
that I have which is

720
00:28:16,730 --> 00:28:14,580
there's there are lots and lots of ways

721
00:28:19,010 --> 00:28:16,740
of going about the the problem of

722
00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:19,020
Consciousness but one of them for me is

723
00:28:23,390 --> 00:28:21,120
through personal practice of mindfulness

724
00:28:25,070 --> 00:28:23,400
meditation taking psychedelic drugs all

725
00:28:27,289 --> 00:28:25,080
kinds of things that change one State of

726
00:28:31,190 --> 00:28:27,299
Consciousness because I feel that that

727
00:28:32,510 --> 00:28:31,200
approach is needed alongside the

728
00:28:34,850 --> 00:28:32,520
scientific approach and the

729
00:28:36,169 --> 00:28:34,860
philosophical approach oh you're nodding

730
00:28:37,310 --> 00:28:36,179
there so I'd like to hear what you think

731
00:28:40,730 --> 00:28:37,320
about that

732
00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:40,740
oh yeah some of you are extremely famous

733
00:28:46,669 --> 00:28:43,200
colleagues I think agree with you but I

734
00:28:48,890 --> 00:28:46,679
I can't say anything more beyond that

735
00:28:51,169 --> 00:28:48,900
um I I agree I think introspection is

736
00:28:52,610 --> 00:28:51,179
one of the royal Avenues to knowledge

737
00:28:55,669 --> 00:28:52,620
especially if you're talking about the

738
00:28:57,230 --> 00:28:55,679
mind uh if one is doing Neuroscience of

739
00:28:59,630 --> 00:28:57,240
Consciousness or philosophy of Mind

740
00:29:02,149 --> 00:28:59,640
introspection is essential so the person

741
00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:02,159
know what he's talking about I mean that

742
00:29:06,830 --> 00:29:04,559
doesn't replace objective studies like

743
00:29:08,690 --> 00:29:06,840
neuroimaging which I think is extremely

744
00:29:10,970 --> 00:29:08,700
valuable it's been getting a lot of

745
00:29:12,529 --> 00:29:10,980
flack recently justifiably to some

746
00:29:15,669 --> 00:29:12,539
extent but I think it's a great advance

747
00:29:18,110 --> 00:29:15,679
of the 21st century it doesn't replace

748
00:29:20,450 --> 00:29:18,120
clinical experience but it's it's

749
00:29:24,350 --> 00:29:20,460
certainly a key component back to

750
00:29:26,570 --> 00:29:24,360
Graziano he's an Illusionist in in the

751
00:29:28,549 --> 00:29:26,580
broad sense that you are using in the

752
00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:28,559
sense that what he's trying to deny is

753
00:29:31,490 --> 00:29:30,240
the existence of some kind of personal

754
00:29:35,389 --> 00:29:31,500
soul

755
00:29:37,789 --> 00:29:35,399
but I mean who would disagree with that

756
00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:37,799
it's it I almost said you're still alive

757
00:29:43,549 --> 00:29:41,760
on the planet today well who amongst the

758
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:43,559
people who are working seriously on this

759
00:29:47,570 --> 00:29:45,600
would disagree with that so I almost

760
00:29:48,230 --> 00:29:47,580
yawn at that

761
00:29:52,610 --> 00:29:48,240
um

762
00:29:54,889 --> 00:29:52,620
eliminativist as opposed to an

763
00:29:57,950 --> 00:29:54,899
Illusionist because illusionism is the

764
00:30:00,470 --> 00:29:57,960
denial not of it is invited so but the

765
00:30:02,690 --> 00:30:00,480
denial of phenomenal States and that's

766
00:30:04,190 --> 00:30:02,700
not how you are using the word because

767
00:30:06,169 --> 00:30:04,200
you just said you acknowledge the

768
00:30:07,909 --> 00:30:06,179
existence of phenomenal States so

769
00:30:10,850 --> 00:30:07,919
strictly speaking from a philosophical

770
00:30:13,090 --> 00:30:10,860
perspective you aren't an Illusionist so

771
00:30:16,370 --> 00:30:13,100
you I'm not the real thing you are

772
00:30:18,769 --> 00:30:16,380
you're an illusion of one and and if you

773
00:30:21,049 --> 00:30:18,779
if you are not a dualist which it seems

774
00:30:23,210 --> 00:30:21,059
you are not and you want knowledge the

775
00:30:26,210 --> 00:30:23,220
existence of phenomenal States then you

776
00:30:28,430 --> 00:30:26,220
are pair Force an idealist semantically

777
00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:28,440
there is no other space for you to land

778
00:30:32,750 --> 00:30:30,960
if you know what I mean what about

779
00:30:34,909 --> 00:30:32,760
um pan psychism

780
00:30:36,169 --> 00:30:34,919
I'm not particularly Landing there but

781
00:30:38,029 --> 00:30:36,179
I'd love to hear what you think about

782
00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:38,039
that because that's the idealism isn't

783
00:30:41,630 --> 00:30:40,080
the only possibility is it

784
00:30:43,430 --> 00:30:41,640
well you just said it was maybe you

785
00:30:46,010 --> 00:30:43,440
could defend that

786
00:30:48,169 --> 00:30:46,020
there are versions of pen psychism that

787
00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:48,179
would that would State the following the

788
00:30:53,149 --> 00:30:50,159
nominal states are not just extra

789
00:30:55,310 --> 00:30:53,159
properties of subatomic particles they

790
00:30:57,529 --> 00:30:55,320
are the essence of subatomic particles

791
00:30:59,450 --> 00:30:57,539
and all the other properties like Mass

792
00:31:02,330 --> 00:30:59,460
charge momentums being these are all

793
00:31:06,250 --> 00:31:02,340
external appearances of that Essence and

794
00:31:10,970 --> 00:31:06,260
that comes down to a form of uh

795
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:10,980
live it's not like idealism a monad like

796
00:31:15,950 --> 00:31:12,960
Theory

797
00:31:17,990 --> 00:31:15,960
um but that's physically incoherent and

798
00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:18,000
and it amazes me that this stuff is

799
00:31:23,889 --> 00:31:19,679
still talked about because we have known

800
00:31:26,510 --> 00:31:23,899
things at least the 1940s at least since

801
00:31:29,210 --> 00:31:26,520
1949 when Feynman published his famous

802
00:31:30,889 --> 00:31:29,220
Quantum electrodynamics paper with the

803
00:31:32,269 --> 00:31:30,899
defining diagrams and all that stuff

804
00:31:34,669 --> 00:31:32,279
that cotton Nobel Prize we've known

805
00:31:36,889 --> 00:31:34,679
since then that particles are just

806
00:31:39,350 --> 00:31:36,899
metaphors for local excitations of

807
00:31:41,690 --> 00:31:39,360
underlying feuds in other words there

808
00:31:43,250 --> 00:31:41,700
are no particles there's nothing to a

809
00:31:45,710 --> 00:31:43,260
particle but they're underlying field

810
00:31:48,409 --> 00:31:45,720
just as there is nothing to a ripple but

811
00:31:49,970 --> 00:31:48,419
the underlying Lake you can't fish the

812
00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:49,980
Ripple out of the lake because the

813
00:31:54,590 --> 00:31:52,320
Ripple is a doing of the lake it's not a

814
00:31:56,389 --> 00:31:54,600
thing it's a behavior particles are the

815
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,399
same thing particles are behaviors of

816
00:32:01,549 --> 00:31:58,559
underlying Quantum fields and without

817
00:32:03,470 --> 00:32:01,559
this we couldn't begin to make sense of

818
00:32:04,850 --> 00:32:03,480
a great many things we know happen for

819
00:32:07,909 --> 00:32:04,860
instance we couldn't make sense of

820
00:32:09,769 --> 00:32:07,919
particle Decay a Higgs boson can Decay

821
00:32:12,409 --> 00:32:09,779
into two quarks

822
00:32:15,289 --> 00:32:12,419
or or two mules which are heavy

823
00:32:16,789 --> 00:32:15,299
electrons but there aren't two melons in

824
00:32:19,730 --> 00:32:16,799
the hex Boson

825
00:32:22,549 --> 00:32:19,740
so how how does it become Two Mules well

826
00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:22,559
it's because decaying means that a

827
00:32:26,889 --> 00:32:24,480
particular excitation in the underlying

828
00:32:30,769 --> 00:32:26,899
field in this case the the Higgs field

829
00:32:33,529 --> 00:32:30,779
uh decays one Ripple becomes two other

830
00:32:36,169 --> 00:32:33,539
ripples there is no magic in that but if

831
00:32:39,049 --> 00:32:36,179
you think particles are things then the

832
00:32:41,210 --> 00:32:39,059
Heats both magically disappears and two

833
00:32:43,430 --> 00:32:41,220
muons magically appear it's like what

834
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:43,440
the hell but I I don't even need to get

835
00:32:48,289 --> 00:32:46,080
to to go that far we wouldn't be able to

836
00:32:51,230 --> 00:32:48,299
explain particle interactions

837
00:32:53,389 --> 00:32:51,240
which is something quantum theory

838
00:32:56,090 --> 00:32:53,399
doesn't give us only Quantum Feud Theory

839
00:32:58,010 --> 00:32:56,100
so there are no particles and psychism

840
00:33:00,889 --> 00:32:58,020
assumes that there are particles with

841
00:33:02,049 --> 00:33:00,899
delineated spatial boundaries and that

842
00:33:04,490 --> 00:33:02,059
they are

843
00:33:06,169 --> 00:33:04,500
self-existing things now this is

844
00:33:08,350 --> 00:33:06,179
physically contradictory it doesn't even

845
00:33:11,210 --> 00:33:08,360
well that's only one version of pants

846
00:33:13,190 --> 00:33:11,220
I'm not going to defend pan psychism but

847
00:33:15,950 --> 00:33:13,200
I I do enjoy playing around with it but

848
00:33:18,830 --> 00:33:15,960
there are lots of other forms that say

849
00:33:22,190 --> 00:33:18,840
um uh only living things can be

850
00:33:23,870 --> 00:33:22,200
conscious or uh only you know higher

851
00:33:26,269 --> 00:33:23,880
order thinking things will be conscious

852
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:26,279
or I don't know different size objects

853
00:33:30,529 --> 00:33:28,080
there's all sorts of variations or even

854
00:33:32,509 --> 00:33:30,539
just representations

855
00:33:35,389 --> 00:33:32,519
um maybe anything any system that

856
00:33:37,549 --> 00:33:35,399
represents something uh as internal or

857
00:33:39,049 --> 00:33:37,559
or external to itself

858
00:33:41,210 --> 00:33:39,059
um could be

859
00:33:43,310 --> 00:33:41,220
um have experience there's lots of

860
00:33:45,169 --> 00:33:43,320
versions but what I got confused with

861
00:33:46,909 --> 00:33:45,179
what you were saying was I thought you

862
00:33:47,810 --> 00:33:46,919
were just talking about like knits and

863
00:33:51,289 --> 00:33:47,820
then

864
00:33:52,850 --> 00:33:51,299
um how physics and Feynman and so on

865
00:33:55,490 --> 00:33:52,860
um but were you actually talking about

866
00:33:59,570 --> 00:33:55,500
what you believe because what is this

867
00:34:01,610 --> 00:33:59,580
underlying field if you are an idealist

868
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:01,620
um what do you mean by an underlying

869
00:34:10,129 --> 00:34:06,950
deals under quantum theory are our

870
00:34:11,810 --> 00:34:10,139
models we model nature in terms of

871
00:34:14,030 --> 00:34:11,820
fields and fields are spatially

872
00:34:16,550 --> 00:34:14,040
distributed they exist in every point of

873
00:34:18,470 --> 00:34:16,560
space-time that's the model of a field

874
00:34:20,869 --> 00:34:18,480
but everything in science is a

875
00:34:23,270 --> 00:34:20,879
convenient fiction like when Newton

876
00:34:25,550 --> 00:34:23,280
proposed this invisible force acting at

877
00:34:27,050 --> 00:34:25,560
a distance instantaneously between the

878
00:34:29,450 --> 00:34:27,060
Earth and the moon the force of gravity

879
00:34:31,129 --> 00:34:29,460
that was a convenient fiction today it's

880
00:34:33,770 --> 00:34:31,139
no longer convenient we know there is no

881
00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:33,780
such Force gravity is a distortion of

882
00:34:39,230 --> 00:34:35,760
space-time a bending of space-time

883
00:34:41,690 --> 00:34:39,240
actually even that later convenient

884
00:34:44,409 --> 00:34:41,700
fiction is now Falling by the wayside

885
00:34:49,070 --> 00:34:44,419
because now with Quantum Loop gravity

886
00:34:51,770 --> 00:34:49,080
that whole thing is being revised so we

887
00:34:55,450 --> 00:34:51,780
shouldn't take the 17 Quantum fields

888
00:34:58,490 --> 00:34:55,460
that exist today at real existence

889
00:35:00,829 --> 00:34:58,500
because they are just conceptual models

890
00:35:03,470 --> 00:35:00,839
that allow us to to predict the Nature's

891
00:35:05,390 --> 00:35:03,480
Behavior now what it does tell us is

892
00:35:06,950 --> 00:35:05,400
that whatever is going on it's not

893
00:35:09,829 --> 00:35:06,960
spatially localized

894
00:35:12,050 --> 00:35:09,839
the world is not made of little bricks

895
00:35:14,050 --> 00:35:12,060
that are put together that's not how

896
00:35:17,210 --> 00:35:14,060
nature Works

897
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:17,220
unless you make that step to Fields a

898
00:35:20,810 --> 00:35:18,720
great many things would break you

899
00:35:23,569 --> 00:35:20,820
wouldn't be able to reconcile

900
00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:23,579
um quantum theory with relativity you

901
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:24,960
wouldn't be able to explain particle

902
00:35:27,770 --> 00:35:26,160
interaction you wouldn't be able to

903
00:35:30,609 --> 00:35:27,780
explain particle Decay you wouldn't be

904
00:35:33,410 --> 00:35:30,619
able to explain the quantum foam or

905
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:33,420
spontaneous Quantum excitations and

906
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:34,560
therefore you wouldn't be able to

907
00:35:41,329 --> 00:35:39,119
explain uh um what people call 0.4s

908
00:35:43,130 --> 00:35:41,339
which is casimir's effect which is

909
00:35:46,250 --> 00:35:43,140
experimental experimentally demonstrated

910
00:35:49,730 --> 00:35:46,260
so what what these models are telling us

911
00:35:51,650 --> 00:35:49,740
is that at the bottom level nature is

912
00:35:54,290 --> 00:35:51,660
not spatially localized

913
00:35:56,750 --> 00:35:54,300
that's the the bottle the bottleneck and

914
00:35:59,390 --> 00:35:56,760
it dovetails nicely with idealism at

915
00:36:02,270 --> 00:35:59,400
least with objective forms of idealism

916
00:36:04,670 --> 00:36:02,280
which say yes there is a world out there

917
00:36:07,190 --> 00:36:04,680
it's not in our minds it's not

918
00:36:09,890 --> 00:36:07,200
susceptible to our fantasy Ro wishes or

919
00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:09,900
our affirmations every morning it's

920
00:36:13,609 --> 00:36:12,000
objective from our point of view and it

921
00:36:17,450 --> 00:36:13,619
would it would still be there even if we

922
00:36:19,010 --> 00:36:17,460
were not here but it too is mental in

923
00:36:21,050 --> 00:36:19,020
nature just like my thoughts are

924
00:36:22,490 --> 00:36:21,060
objective from your point of view even

925
00:36:24,710 --> 00:36:22,500
if you are not there I would still be

926
00:36:26,329 --> 00:36:24,720
having thoughts and whatever fantasy you

927
00:36:28,190 --> 00:36:26,339
may entertain it doesn't affect my

928
00:36:29,870 --> 00:36:28,200
thoughts from your point of view my

929
00:36:32,030 --> 00:36:29,880
thoughts are objective but they are out

930
00:36:35,030 --> 00:36:32,040
to there they are outside your personal

931
00:36:37,310 --> 00:36:35,040
mind so the claim is there are mental

932
00:36:39,650 --> 00:36:37,320
processes out there they are not ours

933
00:36:41,450 --> 00:36:39,660
they are objective from our perspective

934
00:36:45,109 --> 00:36:41,460
they are predictable that's why science

935
00:36:46,970 --> 00:36:45,119
Works they are non-localized because

936
00:36:49,069 --> 00:36:46,980
there is only one field of subjectivity

937
00:36:52,250 --> 00:36:49,079
this is critical to avoid the

938
00:36:54,829 --> 00:36:52,260
combination problem and itself nicely

939
00:36:57,530 --> 00:36:54,839
with Feud Theory because the whole the

940
00:36:59,089 --> 00:36:57,540
whole for the past 40 years the whole of

941
00:37:01,910 --> 00:36:59,099
physics is trying to do the so-called

942
00:37:04,190 --> 00:37:01,920
Grand unification Theory sort of folding

943
00:37:08,450 --> 00:37:04,200
gravity into the quantum fields and

944
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:08,460
going from 17 to 1 and theory was an

945
00:37:12,230 --> 00:37:10,079
attempt and now we have Loop quantum

946
00:37:15,650 --> 00:37:12,240
gravity so it dovetails nicely with that

947
00:37:18,410 --> 00:37:15,660
but forget idealism there are no

948
00:37:21,950 --> 00:37:18,420
particles this is not my belief this is

949
00:37:24,530 --> 00:37:21,960
not my opinion this is textbook Quantum

950
00:37:27,410 --> 00:37:24,540
field Theory it's the basis of the

951
00:37:29,690 --> 00:37:27,420
standard model it's what is guiding us

952
00:37:32,930 --> 00:37:29,700
when we invest billions of dollars or

953
00:37:35,569 --> 00:37:32,940
Euros at CERN this this is not even news

954
00:37:38,210 --> 00:37:35,579
it some would claim we've known that

955
00:37:39,770 --> 00:37:38,220
since 19 the 1920s but at least since

956
00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:39,780
the 1940s

957
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:42,000
but I don't understand

958
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:44,640
um the fundamental lack of understanding

959
00:37:49,069 --> 00:37:45,599
I have

960
00:37:50,569 --> 00:37:49,079
is if if you take your idealist View and

961
00:37:52,510 --> 00:37:50,579
you're saying that there is still the

962
00:37:56,089 --> 00:37:52,520
fields

963
00:37:59,329 --> 00:37:56,099
objectively existing why do they behave

964
00:38:01,609 --> 00:37:59,339
the way they do I mean how do you get if

965
00:38:03,050 --> 00:38:01,619
everything is is basically mind or

966
00:38:04,430 --> 00:38:03,060
mental

967
00:38:05,930 --> 00:38:04,440
I'm not sure whether you would say

968
00:38:08,210 --> 00:38:05,940
everything is conscious but anyway if

969
00:38:11,569 --> 00:38:08,220
everything is mental and that comes

970
00:38:13,730 --> 00:38:11,579
first why do we get these apparent laws

971
00:38:16,670 --> 00:38:13,740
of nature the way things behave um the

972
00:38:19,069 --> 00:38:16,680
consistency why I mean at least

973
00:38:21,710 --> 00:38:19,079
materialism has some kind of answers to

974
00:38:23,329 --> 00:38:21,720
the way the world behaves or are you

975
00:38:25,550 --> 00:38:23,339
saying it doesn't

976
00:38:26,810 --> 00:38:25,560
um you know I I just think you shift

977
00:38:29,450 --> 00:38:26,820
from one to the other you shift from

978
00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:29,460
materialism to idealism I don't know

979
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:31,200
what you've what you've gained in in

980
00:38:36,349 --> 00:38:34,560
doing that well you avoid the dualism

981
00:38:38,329 --> 00:38:36,359
you avoid the hard part avoid dualism

982
00:38:39,950 --> 00:38:38,339
yes absolutely we have to avoid dualism

983
00:38:41,710 --> 00:38:39,960
and you avoid the heart problem of

984
00:38:45,290 --> 00:38:41,720
Consciousness

985
00:38:49,370 --> 00:38:45,300
the notion that something that is mental

986
00:38:52,430 --> 00:38:49,380
in essence cannot behave regularly is

987
00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:52,440
merely a metaphysical Prejudice human

988
00:38:56,930 --> 00:38:54,960
Minds evolved in a planetary ecosystem

989
00:38:59,690 --> 00:38:56,940
and therefore we evolved to be very

990
00:39:01,849 --> 00:38:59,700
reactive and so you could say human

991
00:39:03,829 --> 00:39:01,859
Minds which have developed higher level

992
00:39:05,750 --> 00:39:03,839
mental functions and are reactive to

993
00:39:08,270 --> 00:39:05,760
their environment they are difficult to

994
00:39:09,890 --> 00:39:08,280
predict but although even human Minds

995
00:39:12,530 --> 00:39:09,900
can be predicted and psychology is

996
00:39:14,750 --> 00:39:12,540
making progress in that direction but a

997
00:39:17,270 --> 00:39:14,760
mind without higher level mental

998
00:39:19,250 --> 00:39:17,280
functions can behave according to

999
00:39:21,650 --> 00:39:19,260
precise irregularities why because

1000
00:39:25,010 --> 00:39:21,660
that's what I want to understand why why

1001
00:39:28,370 --> 00:39:25,020
are there these regularities or laws or

1002
00:39:30,050 --> 00:39:28,380
or consistencies and so you say that you

1003
00:39:32,990 --> 00:39:30,060
know our mind

1004
00:39:35,210 --> 00:39:33,000
um it works in particular ways why does

1005
00:39:38,089 --> 00:39:35,220
it produce the appearance of a brain and

1006
00:39:40,730 --> 00:39:38,099
neurons and all of that kind of stuff

1007
00:39:42,650 --> 00:39:40,740
these are two questions so why does it

1008
00:39:44,930 --> 00:39:42,660
behave regularly because it is what it

1009
00:39:47,390 --> 00:39:44,940
is that nature clearly behaves regularly

1010
00:39:49,609 --> 00:39:47,400
I mean whatever metaphysics you have the

1011
00:39:51,470 --> 00:39:49,619
regularity of Nature's behavior is a

1012
00:39:53,030 --> 00:39:51,480
given we can predict what nature will do

1013
00:39:55,490 --> 00:39:53,040
next that's why technology Works

1014
00:39:58,609 --> 00:39:55,500
otherwise it wouldn't but the Prejudice

1015
00:40:01,430 --> 00:39:58,619
is that mind can't behave regularly well

1016
00:40:03,050 --> 00:40:01,440
the news is it does even if it's so

1017
00:40:05,450 --> 00:40:03,060
complex that it's difficult to predict

1018
00:40:07,790 --> 00:40:05,460
it does behave regularly and two we

1019
00:40:09,890 --> 00:40:07,800
cannot anthropomorphize that mind of

1020
00:40:12,170 --> 00:40:09,900
nature out there that can be a very

1021
00:40:13,970 --> 00:40:12,180
probably is a very simple mind didn't

1022
00:40:15,890 --> 00:40:13,980
evolve higher level mental functions in

1023
00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:15,900
a planetary ecosystem it's an

1024
00:40:19,690 --> 00:40:18,060
instinctive spontaneous mind and behaves

1025
00:40:23,210 --> 00:40:19,700
according to regularities

1026
00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:23,220
alligators have very regular Behavior if

1027
00:40:26,870 --> 00:40:24,720
you approach them and you cross a

1028
00:40:28,790 --> 00:40:26,880
certain threshold of distance they may

1029
00:40:30,829 --> 00:40:28,800
Lounge at you but if you don't cross

1030
00:40:33,349 --> 00:40:30,839
that threshold they never try to Lounge

1031
00:40:35,870 --> 00:40:33,359
at you Minds can be very predictable so

1032
00:40:39,670 --> 00:40:35,880
this is not an argument against idealism

1033
00:40:44,510 --> 00:40:39,680
now why does it seem the way way it does

1034
00:40:46,490 --> 00:40:44,520
now it's a technical answer to cut me if

1035
00:40:49,790 --> 00:40:46,500
you think it's going too far but there

1036
00:40:51,770 --> 00:40:49,800
are two reasons for this one is we

1037
00:40:52,849 --> 00:40:51,780
cannot see the world as it actually is

1038
00:40:55,730 --> 00:40:52,859
because there would be information

1039
00:40:57,890 --> 00:40:55,740
overload it's like seeing the files in

1040
00:41:00,290 --> 00:40:57,900
your computer on your desktop exactly

1041
00:41:02,329 --> 00:41:00,300
the way they are millions of open or

1042
00:41:03,770 --> 00:41:02,339
closed microscopic switches that's

1043
00:41:07,130 --> 00:41:03,780
useless it's not it doesn't favor

1044
00:41:09,730 --> 00:41:07,140
survival what you want is to perceive

1045
00:41:12,050 --> 00:41:09,740
the Salient features that are relevant

1046
00:41:14,750 --> 00:41:12,060
that's one answer the other answer is

1047
00:41:17,089 --> 00:41:14,760
entropy control if our intercognitive

1048
00:41:19,790 --> 00:41:17,099
states would mirror the states of the

1049
00:41:21,710 --> 00:41:19,800
world there would be no upper bound to

1050
00:41:23,630 --> 00:41:21,720
our internal entropy because there is no

1051
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:23,640
a priori upper bounds to the entropy of

1052
00:41:28,030 --> 00:41:26,160
the world so if you were to mirror those

1053
00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:28,040
States in our inner cognitive states

1054
00:41:34,670 --> 00:41:31,040
without a bound to our internal entropy

1055
00:41:37,670 --> 00:41:34,680
and now using an illustrative metaphor

1056
00:41:40,010 --> 00:41:37,680
we could melt into hot meat soup because

1057
00:41:41,930 --> 00:41:40,020
on bounded entropy is not compatible

1058
00:41:43,670 --> 00:41:41,940
with structural and dynamic integrity

1059
00:41:47,930 --> 00:41:43,680
and this has been shown mathematically

1060
00:41:49,609 --> 00:41:47,940
by some neuroscientists so we see the

1061
00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:49,619
relevant and Salient information about

1062
00:41:55,190 --> 00:41:52,800
our environment at a glance and the

1063
00:41:57,230 --> 00:41:55,200
result of that is what we call the

1064
00:41:59,690 --> 00:41:57,240
colloquially physical world the contents

1065
00:42:01,490 --> 00:41:59,700
of the screen of perception that's much

1066
00:42:03,530 --> 00:42:01,500
more conducive to survival and to

1067
00:42:05,810 --> 00:42:03,540
maintaining our internal structural and

1068
00:42:07,730 --> 00:42:05,820
dynamic Integrity then seeing the states

1069
00:42:10,190 --> 00:42:07,740
of the world for what they actually are

1070
00:42:12,230 --> 00:42:10,200
to use another metaphor

1071
00:42:13,849 --> 00:42:12,240
the contents of the screen of perception

1072
00:42:16,010 --> 00:42:13,859
are like the dashboard of an airplane

1073
00:42:17,870 --> 00:42:16,020
the airplane has sensors it makes

1074
00:42:20,089 --> 00:42:17,880
measurements of the states of the sky

1075
00:42:21,710 --> 00:42:20,099
outside and those measurements are

1076
00:42:22,550 --> 00:42:21,720
presented to the pilot in the form of a

1077
00:42:24,349 --> 00:42:22,560
dashboard

1078
00:42:25,910 --> 00:42:24,359
and the pilot can fly based on the

1079
00:42:27,530 --> 00:42:25,920
dashboard alone flying by instruments

1080
00:42:29,810 --> 00:42:27,540
you don't need a transparent windscreen

1081
00:42:31,609 --> 00:42:29,820
to see the world as it actually is guess

1082
00:42:34,130 --> 00:42:31,619
what that's exactly what we do we have

1083
00:42:35,990 --> 00:42:34,140
sensors Eyes Ears tongs surface of the

1084
00:42:38,030 --> 00:42:36,000
skin we make measurements and those

1085
00:42:39,710 --> 00:42:38,040
measurements are presented to to meta

1086
00:42:41,210 --> 00:42:39,720
Consciousness which is different from

1087
00:42:43,190 --> 00:42:41,220
phenomenal States it's something that

1088
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:43,200
comes on top is presented to meta

1089
00:42:47,810 --> 00:42:45,359
Consciousness in the form of the

1090
00:42:49,910 --> 00:42:47,820
physical world so the physical world is

1091
00:42:52,190 --> 00:42:49,920
an internal dashboard it does convey

1092
00:42:54,650 --> 00:42:52,200
accurate information about the real

1093
00:42:56,690 --> 00:42:54,660
world but it doesn't look like the real

1094
00:42:58,370 --> 00:42:56,700
world because not only does it not need

1095
00:43:00,349 --> 00:42:58,380
to a dashboard it doesn't look like the

1096
00:43:01,910 --> 00:43:00,359
clouds in the sky but because it

1097
00:43:04,730 --> 00:43:01,920
shouldn't in order to control our

1098
00:43:07,370 --> 00:43:04,740
internal entropy and and and facilitate

1099
00:43:09,170 --> 00:43:07,380
uh prompt reactions to environmental

1100
00:43:11,630 --> 00:43:09,180
challenges

1101
00:43:13,490 --> 00:43:11,640
we're all confused now because you're

1102
00:43:15,829 --> 00:43:13,500
talking about

1103
00:43:18,829 --> 00:43:15,839
um the way the world seems and how the

1104
00:43:20,569 --> 00:43:18,839
world really is and almost all of that

1105
00:43:23,390 --> 00:43:20,579
second part of your answer seems to me

1106
00:43:25,970 --> 00:43:23,400
could be spoken by a materialist and

1107
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:25,980
make perfect sense and I don't see what

1108
00:43:31,670 --> 00:43:29,520
idealism gives you to help with that I

1109
00:43:33,170 --> 00:43:31,680
mean yes of course this is we I've

1110
00:43:34,670 --> 00:43:33,180
talked about attention and attention

1111
00:43:36,589 --> 00:43:34,680
schema Theory

1112
00:43:38,930 --> 00:43:36,599
um we have to pay attention to things

1113
00:43:41,329 --> 00:43:38,940
that matter to us we evolved

1114
00:43:43,490 --> 00:43:41,339
um in we evolved the skills that we have

1115
00:43:45,050 --> 00:43:43,500
and the minds that we have in order to

1116
00:43:47,150 --> 00:43:45,060
survive and get around in the

1117
00:43:49,130 --> 00:43:47,160
environment we are evolved in not to

1118
00:43:50,990 --> 00:43:49,140
have an accurate view of

1119
00:43:52,609 --> 00:43:51,000
um what is

1120
00:43:54,050 --> 00:43:52,619
um actually out there and now you're

1121
00:43:57,170 --> 00:43:54,060
talking about things that are actually

1122
00:43:59,390 --> 00:43:57,180
out there just as a materialist or as a

1123
00:44:02,030 --> 00:43:59,400
dualist would indeed so I'm deeply

1124
00:44:04,490 --> 00:44:02,040
confused now because I don't know what

1125
00:44:07,910 --> 00:44:04,500
idealism what difference idealism makes

1126
00:44:10,609 --> 00:44:07,920
and what it adds and how it helps us it

1127
00:44:12,950 --> 00:44:10,619
takes away a next foreignty category

1128
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:12,960
that is completely unnecessary namely

1129
00:44:16,609 --> 00:44:14,880
something that is not mind something

1130
00:44:18,829 --> 00:44:16,619
that is not phenomenal something that is

1131
00:44:21,010 --> 00:44:18,839
not mental so you're recording all the

1132
00:44:23,569 --> 00:44:21,020
outside world there so we have our our

1133
00:44:25,010 --> 00:44:23,579
experiences of the world and so on and

1134
00:44:28,730 --> 00:44:25,020
the outside world there you're just

1135
00:44:30,530 --> 00:44:28,740
calling that conscious or mental

1136
00:44:33,109 --> 00:44:30,540
um rather than calling it something

1137
00:44:34,609 --> 00:44:33,119
completely different and physical but

1138
00:44:37,130 --> 00:44:34,619
what does that mean to say that it's

1139
00:44:40,250 --> 00:44:37,140
meant like that's what I just don't get

1140
00:44:42,170 --> 00:44:40,260
it means that it's of the same kind as

1141
00:44:45,470 --> 00:44:42,180
your own intermentation in other words

1142
00:44:47,450 --> 00:44:45,480
it's qualitative in nature it cannot be

1143
00:44:49,130 --> 00:44:47,460
exhaustively described in terms of a

1144
00:44:52,970 --> 00:44:49,140
list of numbers the latter is

1145
00:44:54,770 --> 00:44:52,980
materialism okay and by by avoiding this

1146
00:44:57,349 --> 00:44:54,780
non-mental stuff

1147
00:44:59,329 --> 00:44:57,359
you avoid having to come back from no

1148
00:45:01,370 --> 00:44:59,339
mental stuff to mental stuff which is

1149
00:45:02,930 --> 00:45:01,380
the hard problem of Consciousness you

1150
00:45:04,490 --> 00:45:02,940
avoid this all together so now you're

1151
00:45:07,010 --> 00:45:04,500
saying the world out there is made of

1152
00:45:08,930 --> 00:45:07,020
qualities these are not the qualities of

1153
00:45:11,930 --> 00:45:08,940
my perception these are different

1154
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:11,940
qualities my perception is an internal

1155
00:45:16,130 --> 00:45:13,680
dashboard representation of the

1156
00:45:17,930 --> 00:45:16,140
qualities that are out there there are

1157
00:45:19,849 --> 00:45:17,940
actual qualities out there and they are

1158
00:45:21,650 --> 00:45:19,859
mental in some kind of nature that I

1159
00:45:23,089 --> 00:45:21,660
don't quite understand what that means

1160
00:45:25,250 --> 00:45:23,099
that they're mental

1161
00:45:28,309 --> 00:45:25,260
they are mentoring the sense that they

1162
00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:28,319
are experienced by Nature they are

1163
00:45:33,530 --> 00:45:31,200
experiential in essence but we don't

1164
00:45:35,630 --> 00:45:33,540
experience those qualities as they are

1165
00:45:38,329 --> 00:45:35,640
we have a representation of those

1166
00:45:40,670 --> 00:45:38,339
qualities so now we have to come from

1167
00:45:42,650 --> 00:45:40,680
qualities to real qualities that are out

1168
00:45:45,230 --> 00:45:42,660
there to the qualities of perception

1169
00:45:47,150 --> 00:45:45,240
that's a much easier Bridge because

1170
00:45:49,309 --> 00:45:47,160
there is no fundamental ontological

1171
00:45:51,290 --> 00:45:49,319
transition now you have mental states of

1172
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:51,300
one kind modulating mental states of

1173
00:45:55,490 --> 00:45:53,760
another is this coherent of course it is

1174
00:45:57,710 --> 00:45:55,500
it's happening every time every day to

1175
00:45:59,809 --> 00:45:57,720
all all of us your thoughts modulate

1176
00:46:01,790 --> 00:45:59,819
your emotions your emotions modulate

1177
00:46:04,910 --> 00:46:01,800
your thoughts your thoughts modulate

1178
00:46:07,130 --> 00:46:04,920
your fantasies mental states of

1179
00:46:10,730 --> 00:46:07,140
different kinds are modulating one

1180
00:46:13,370 --> 00:46:10,740
another all the time in all of us said

1181
00:46:14,030 --> 00:46:13,380
something a bit contentious there

1182
00:46:15,829 --> 00:46:14,040
um

1183
00:46:18,230 --> 00:46:15,839
about

1184
00:46:20,390 --> 00:46:18,240
um thoughts and emotions

1185
00:46:22,010 --> 00:46:20,400
uh are you saying that the thoughts

1186
00:46:23,569 --> 00:46:22,020
cause the emotions or are you saying

1187
00:46:24,770 --> 00:46:23,579
that they are the same as the emotional

1188
00:46:26,329 --> 00:46:24,780
what what is what are you saying about

1189
00:46:27,829 --> 00:46:26,339
the relationship between thoughts and

1190
00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:27,839
emotions

1191
00:46:34,970 --> 00:46:31,440
they are both mental States so there is

1192
00:46:36,650 --> 00:46:34,980
no antic distinction between them but we

1193
00:46:38,390 --> 00:46:36,660
use different words because there is

1194
00:46:40,430 --> 00:46:38,400
something about it the respective

1195
00:46:41,809 --> 00:46:40,440
qualities that allow us to differentiate

1196
00:46:44,809 --> 00:46:41,819
one from the other

1197
00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:44,819
now if you have a certain emotion it

1198
00:46:48,770 --> 00:46:46,560
changes the kinds of thoughts you are

1199
00:46:51,050 --> 00:46:48,780
liable to having or if you have certain

1200
00:46:52,910 --> 00:46:51,060
kinds of thoughts you become more prone

1201
00:46:55,430 --> 00:46:52,920
to experiencing certain other emotions

1202
00:46:57,890 --> 00:46:55,440
so mental states can modulate other

1203
00:47:00,050 --> 00:46:57,900
mental States trivially it's happening

1204
00:47:02,329 --> 00:47:00,060
all the time that's how minds work so

1205
00:47:04,970 --> 00:47:02,339
all I'm saying now is that there are

1206
00:47:06,490 --> 00:47:04,980
external mental states that modulate our

1207
00:47:09,589 --> 00:47:06,500
internal

1208
00:47:11,930 --> 00:47:09,599
cognitive mental states there is no hard

1209
00:47:14,750 --> 00:47:11,940
problem anymore but there is still an

1210
00:47:16,670 --> 00:47:14,760
external world it's subjective from its

1211
00:47:18,410 --> 00:47:16,680
own point of view but objective from our

1212
00:47:20,750 --> 00:47:18,420
point of view

1213
00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:20,760
I think what why I'm why I'm bothered

1214
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:22,260
about that was because I'm thinking

1215
00:47:28,069 --> 00:47:25,440
about the time course of thoughts versus

1216
00:47:30,589 --> 00:47:28,079
emotions and what causes what and so on

1217
00:47:32,170 --> 00:47:30,599
and I was imagining an emotion in terms

1218
00:47:34,130 --> 00:47:32,180
of all the

1219
00:47:35,450 --> 00:47:34,140
neurotransmitters and hormones and all

1220
00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:35,460
the other things that give rise to

1221
00:47:40,910 --> 00:47:38,640
bodily feelings and when you say that

1222
00:47:43,849 --> 00:47:40,920
thoughts affect bodily feelings there

1223
00:47:45,170 --> 00:47:43,859
appears to be a problem there but that's

1224
00:47:47,390 --> 00:47:45,180
the problem that you're getting away

1225
00:47:49,190 --> 00:47:47,400
with by saying that that they're all

1226
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:49,200
mental things affecting each other in a

1227
00:47:53,210 --> 00:47:51,119
mental the whole world is mental stuff

1228
00:47:54,410 --> 00:47:53,220
and obviously that makes sense of mental

1229
00:47:56,450 --> 00:47:54,420
things affecting other mental things

1230
00:47:58,849 --> 00:47:56,460
yeah yeah and and then what are the

1231
00:48:02,750 --> 00:47:58,859
neurotransmitters what are the neuronal

1232
00:48:04,250 --> 00:48:02,760
firings the neurons and all this stuff

1233
00:48:06,530 --> 00:48:04,260
um there are obvious correlations

1234
00:48:08,690 --> 00:48:06,540
between this stuff and what we feel from

1235
00:48:10,730 --> 00:48:08,700
within denying those correlations just

1236
00:48:13,430 --> 00:48:10,740
silly it's just okay then you don't even

1237
00:48:15,530 --> 00:48:13,440
enter the Party If you deny that how can

1238
00:48:20,089 --> 00:48:15,540
we account for that under an idealist

1239
00:48:22,370 --> 00:48:20,099
perspective under idealism all matter

1240
00:48:24,170 --> 00:48:22,380
is a dashboard representation of a

1241
00:48:25,670 --> 00:48:24,180
mental state when observed from across a

1242
00:48:28,190 --> 00:48:25,680
dissociative boundary but they forget

1243
00:48:30,170 --> 00:48:28,200
about it again observed from

1244
00:48:33,170 --> 00:48:30,180
across a dissociative boundary because

1245
00:48:35,450 --> 00:48:33,180
we have to account for why can't can't I

1246
00:48:36,710 --> 00:48:35,460
read your thoughts why do I not know

1247
00:48:39,069 --> 00:48:36,720
what's happening in the galaxy of

1248
00:48:42,589 --> 00:48:39,079
Andromeda if it's all only one big mind

1249
00:48:44,510 --> 00:48:42,599
then why am I not enlightened right so

1250
00:48:46,910 --> 00:48:44,520
we have to account for that and the

1251
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:46,920
account for that is dissociation which

1252
00:48:50,690 --> 00:48:48,960
is something that Psychiatry now managed

1253
00:48:52,910 --> 00:48:50,700
to show objectively with the Advent of

1254
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:52,920
neuroimaging that it does happen and it

1255
00:48:56,690 --> 00:48:54,960
can literally make you blind so why

1256
00:48:58,370 --> 00:48:56,700
wouldn't it make you make your blind to

1257
00:49:00,349 --> 00:48:58,380
what's happening in the galaxy of

1258
00:49:02,930 --> 00:49:00,359
Andromeda or in the mind of another

1259
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:02,940
person and then

1260
00:49:09,470 --> 00:49:06,000
the way it all comes together is

1261
00:49:11,390 --> 00:49:09,480
all matter under idealism is an inner

1262
00:49:12,829 --> 00:49:11,400
cognitive representation of external

1263
00:49:14,569 --> 00:49:12,839
mental States

1264
00:49:16,069 --> 00:49:14,579
when they are observed across a

1265
00:49:19,790 --> 00:49:16,079
dissociative boundary that's what matter

1266
00:49:22,250 --> 00:49:19,800
is now your neurons are made of the same

1267
00:49:23,750 --> 00:49:22,260
atoms and force fields that make up the

1268
00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:23,760
rest of the universe they are also

1269
00:49:28,970 --> 00:49:26,640
material so your neurons are what your

1270
00:49:31,130 --> 00:49:28,980
inner dissociated mental processes look

1271
00:49:33,290 --> 00:49:31,140
like when they are observed from across

1272
00:49:35,030 --> 00:49:33,300
a dissertative boundary your body is

1273
00:49:37,190 --> 00:49:35,040
what your dissociated implementation

1274
00:49:39,170 --> 00:49:37,200
looks like when it is observed from

1275
00:49:41,630 --> 00:49:39,180
across a dissociative boundary and

1276
00:49:43,190 --> 00:49:41,640
represented on a cognitive dashboard so

1277
00:49:45,530 --> 00:49:43,200
to say like the dashboard of an airplane

1278
00:49:52,490 --> 00:49:45,540
can you please give me the simplest

1279
00:49:55,550 --> 00:49:54,410
I mean I'm sort of struggling with you

1280
00:49:58,130 --> 00:49:55,560
you're talking in a lot of different

1281
00:50:00,349 --> 00:49:58,140
ways there and I kind of think I got the

1282
00:50:02,030 --> 00:50:00,359
gist of it but then I'm thinking I

1283
00:50:03,829 --> 00:50:02,040
clearly haven't got this quite right

1284
00:50:05,870 --> 00:50:03,839
because there'll be dissociative

1285
00:50:08,690 --> 00:50:05,880
boundaries within the system and between

1286
00:50:10,430 --> 00:50:08,700
the system and other people and and so

1287
00:50:12,650 --> 00:50:10,440
on but I haven't quite

1288
00:50:14,750 --> 00:50:12,660
got to the bottom of what you mean what

1289
00:50:17,150 --> 00:50:14,760
would be a sort of minimal dissociative

1290
00:50:18,829 --> 00:50:17,160
boundary conceptually a dissociative

1291
00:50:21,109 --> 00:50:18,839
boundaries is what's given by

1292
00:50:22,490 --> 00:50:21,119
inferential isolation but then it gets

1293
00:50:26,150 --> 00:50:22,500
technical so instead of that I will

1294
00:50:27,650 --> 00:50:26,160
appeal to empirical studies and then it

1295
00:50:31,069 --> 00:50:27,660
makes it more and more alive

1296
00:50:33,230 --> 00:50:31,079
so um you may know this in 2015 there

1297
00:50:35,809 --> 00:50:33,240
was this woman a patient of dissociative

1298
00:50:38,329 --> 00:50:35,819
identity disorder in Germany and she had

1299
00:50:40,849 --> 00:50:38,339
many Alters or dissociated centers of

1300
00:50:43,970 --> 00:50:40,859
awareness two of these altars claimed to

1301
00:50:45,530 --> 00:50:43,980
be blind but the human the woman could

1302
00:50:48,109 --> 00:50:45,540
see perfectly well her eyes were okay

1303
00:50:49,970 --> 00:50:48,119
her visual cortex was okay her Optical

1304
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:49,980
Optical nerves were okay there was

1305
00:50:53,750 --> 00:50:51,599
nothing wrong

1306
00:50:56,329 --> 00:50:53,760
um so neuroscientists had this fantastic

1307
00:50:58,730 --> 00:50:56,339
idea of instrumenting her with an EEG

1308
00:51:00,650 --> 00:50:58,740
cap and measuring her brain activity

1309
00:51:02,690 --> 00:51:00,660
both when the host personality had

1310
00:51:04,609 --> 00:51:02,700
executive control and when one of the

1311
00:51:07,010 --> 00:51:04,619
so-called blind Alters had executive

1312
00:51:08,870 --> 00:51:07,020
control lo and behold when one of those

1313
00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:08,880
altars had executive control the woman

1314
00:51:12,049 --> 00:51:10,800
would have no brain activity in the

1315
00:51:14,089 --> 00:51:12,059
visual cortex

1316
00:51:16,010 --> 00:51:14,099
but when the host personality would be

1317
00:51:18,530 --> 00:51:16,020
back even though that the woman's eyes

1318
00:51:21,410 --> 00:51:18,540
were open so she literally couldn't see

1319
00:51:23,089 --> 00:51:21,420
what was right in front of her eyes with

1320
00:51:24,950 --> 00:51:23,099
nothing physically wrong with her eyes

1321
00:51:27,170 --> 00:51:24,960
Association can do that when the host

1322
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:27,180
personality would be back in executive

1323
00:51:33,549 --> 00:51:30,480
control there would be normal activity

1324
00:51:36,290 --> 00:51:33,559
in the visual cortex so dissociation

1325
00:51:39,470 --> 00:51:36,300
this is an extreme form of dissociation

1326
00:51:42,589 --> 00:51:39,480
it renders you literally blind to what's

1327
00:51:44,510 --> 00:51:42,599
in front of your open eyes but soft

1328
00:51:45,710 --> 00:51:44,520
forms of dissociation are happening to

1329
00:51:47,930 --> 00:51:45,720
us all the time when you forget

1330
00:51:50,930 --> 00:51:47,940
something that you know you know you're

1331
00:51:53,210 --> 00:51:50,940
dissociated when you park your

1332
00:51:55,609 --> 00:51:53,220
relationship relationship problems to be

1333
00:51:58,309 --> 00:51:55,619
able to go to work and perform

1334
00:52:01,490 --> 00:51:58,319
you are dissociated

1335
00:52:04,010 --> 00:52:01,500
um when you can't remember an old trauma

1336
00:52:07,010 --> 00:52:04,020
you are dissociated

1337
00:52:10,910 --> 00:52:07,020
but dissociation does happen in degrees

1338
00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:10,920
now how what is the actual mechanism how

1339
00:52:15,109 --> 00:52:13,200
can we conceptualize that we are not

1340
00:52:17,210 --> 00:52:15,119
there yet but it obviously has to do

1341
00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:17,220
with inferential isolation which is what

1342
00:52:20,510 --> 00:52:18,240
happens when you can't remember

1343
00:52:22,430 --> 00:52:20,520
something you cannot follow a sort of

1344
00:52:23,750 --> 00:52:22,440
chain of cognitive Association but I

1345
00:52:25,549 --> 00:52:23,760
don't get how this kind of relates to

1346
00:52:28,010 --> 00:52:25,559
idealism I mean I can understand all of

1347
00:52:29,690 --> 00:52:28,020
that in terms of brain function and how

1348
00:52:31,490 --> 00:52:29,700
I mean I don't know the mechanism for

1349
00:52:33,650 --> 00:52:31,500
shutting down V1 but I do know by

1350
00:52:37,250 --> 00:52:33,660
playing around at the edges of sleep and

1351
00:52:40,190 --> 00:52:37,260
so on that I can manipulate whether I'm

1352
00:52:42,349 --> 00:52:40,200
I think whether what what I'm

1353
00:52:46,609 --> 00:52:42,359
experiencing is from V1 or is from from

1354
00:52:48,470 --> 00:52:46,619
a higher imaginary factors and if I

1355
00:52:50,030 --> 00:52:48,480
don't I don't I what I was getting at in

1356
00:52:51,950 --> 00:52:50,040
my question was

1357
00:52:53,809 --> 00:52:51,960
you you've talked about these

1358
00:52:55,490 --> 00:52:53,819
dissociative boundaries as though they

1359
00:52:56,990 --> 00:52:55,500
apply to the whole world not just to one

1360
00:52:58,609 --> 00:52:57,000
human being

1361
00:53:00,770 --> 00:52:58,619
um because the way you were talking was

1362
00:53:04,010 --> 00:53:00,780
like between a person and and the world

1363
00:53:06,170 --> 00:53:04,020
out there and I wondered can you really

1364
00:53:08,329 --> 00:53:06,180
um find these boundaries in

1365
00:53:10,910 --> 00:53:08,339
in the world as you're imagining it made

1366
00:53:12,349 --> 00:53:10,920
entirely of mental stuff what would kind

1367
00:53:14,089 --> 00:53:12,359
of be a minimal

1368
00:53:15,710 --> 00:53:14,099
um dissociative boundary that needs to

1369
00:53:18,230 --> 00:53:15,720
be crossed that's what I don't

1370
00:53:19,849 --> 00:53:18,240
understand about this okay first a brief

1371
00:53:21,589 --> 00:53:19,859
comment to really understand the

1372
00:53:23,690 --> 00:53:21,599
idealism we have to understand it under

1373
00:53:25,190 --> 00:53:23,700
its own terms not under materialist

1374
00:53:27,410 --> 00:53:25,200
terms or assumptions because otherwise

1375
00:53:30,290 --> 00:53:27,420
you'd just

1376
00:53:32,450 --> 00:53:30,300
um I think life okay let me give you

1377
00:53:35,089 --> 00:53:32,460
first another study in 2014 Yolanda

1378
00:53:36,349 --> 00:53:35,099
Chillum here in the Netherlands did the

1379
00:53:37,970 --> 00:53:36,359
study in which she took a group of

1380
00:53:39,950 --> 00:53:37,980
people diagnosed with the dissociative

1381
00:53:43,609 --> 00:53:39,960
identity disorder in a group of actors

1382
00:53:45,470 --> 00:53:43,619
and she put both groups under an fmri to

1383
00:53:48,650 --> 00:53:45,480
see if doctors could objectively

1384
00:53:50,750 --> 00:53:48,660
diagnose a dissociation and the actors

1385
00:53:52,970 --> 00:53:50,760
were asked to pretend to themselves that

1386
00:53:54,890 --> 00:53:52,980
they were dissociated lo and behold you

1387
00:53:57,650 --> 00:53:54,900
can objectively diagnose in other words

1388
00:53:58,670 --> 00:53:57,660
there is something dissociation looks

1389
00:54:03,049 --> 00:53:58,680
like

1390
00:54:05,569 --> 00:54:03,059
identifiable patterns of brain activity

1391
00:54:07,670 --> 00:54:05,579
the association has an extrinsic

1392
00:54:12,470 --> 00:54:07,680
appearance an Outer Image it looks like

1393
00:54:14,809 --> 00:54:12,480
something so my claim is life biology is

1394
00:54:16,430 --> 00:54:14,819
what dissociation at a higher level

1395
00:54:18,230 --> 00:54:16,440
looks like

1396
00:54:20,210 --> 00:54:18,240
and that's why I can't read your

1397
00:54:21,730 --> 00:54:20,220
thoughts for as long as I am alive for

1398
00:54:25,130 --> 00:54:21,740
as long as I look like biology

1399
00:54:27,770 --> 00:54:25,140
metabolism that's what the dissociative

1400
00:54:30,170 --> 00:54:27,780
process in nature is looking like at

1401
00:54:31,970 --> 00:54:30,180
that level just like a person with the

1402
00:54:34,790 --> 00:54:31,980
idea has patterns of brain activity that

1403
00:54:36,349 --> 00:54:34,800
look like something identifiable so

1404
00:54:39,470 --> 00:54:36,359
that's what life is and that's why I

1405
00:54:41,510 --> 00:54:39,480
can't read your thoughts now your inner

1406
00:54:44,030 --> 00:54:41,520
mental processes within the boundaries

1407
00:54:46,549 --> 00:54:44,040
of that of your dissociation

1408
00:54:47,930 --> 00:54:46,559
they have to look like something if they

1409
00:54:50,210 --> 00:54:47,940
are observed from across the

1410
00:54:52,569 --> 00:54:50,220
dissociative boundary and lo and behold

1411
00:54:55,790 --> 00:54:52,579
they look like the neural correlates

1412
00:54:58,010 --> 00:54:55,800
what you're talking about yeah okay

1413
00:55:00,470 --> 00:54:58,020
uh I find this particularly interesting

1414
00:55:02,990 --> 00:55:00,480
when you keep talking about why I can't

1415
00:55:04,609 --> 00:55:03,000
um know your thoughts because I spent

1416
00:55:06,589 --> 00:55:04,619
the first sort of 20 years of my

1417
00:55:08,990 --> 00:55:06,599
research life looking for telepathy and

1418
00:55:11,630 --> 00:55:09,000
Clairvoyance and so on and never finding

1419
00:55:13,549 --> 00:55:11,640
them and it's still of great interest to

1420
00:55:15,950 --> 00:55:13,559
me because I spent a lot of time you

1421
00:55:17,809 --> 00:55:15,960
know if if all the it's all out there in

1422
00:55:19,910 --> 00:55:17,819
the akashic records as the theosophers

1423
00:55:21,290 --> 00:55:19,920
would would have it and all the

1424
00:55:23,690 --> 00:55:21,300
information is there then why can't I

1425
00:55:26,450 --> 00:55:23,700
get it and I had a great Theory

1426
00:55:29,030 --> 00:55:26,460
um when I was doing my PhD uh that

1427
00:55:30,410 --> 00:55:29,040
memory uh the only reason that we

1428
00:55:32,089 --> 00:55:30,420
remember our own thoughts and not

1429
00:55:34,250 --> 00:55:32,099
everybody else's is because they're more

1430
00:55:36,650 --> 00:55:34,260
similar and I I'm still attracted to

1431
00:55:39,290 --> 00:55:36,660
thoughts a lot you know ideas along that

1432
00:55:41,390 --> 00:55:39,300
that kind of stream so that was very

1433
00:55:43,430 --> 00:55:41,400
interesting to me but I'd like to pick

1434
00:55:44,990 --> 00:55:43,440
up on something else you said um because

1435
00:55:49,030 --> 00:55:45,000
you said it sounds absolutely

1436
00:55:51,650 --> 00:55:49,040
extraordinary that this um uh

1437
00:55:54,290 --> 00:55:51,660
person suffering from

1438
00:55:54,890 --> 00:55:54,300
um identity dissociation disorder

1439
00:55:56,750 --> 00:55:54,900
um

1440
00:55:59,030 --> 00:55:56,760
could look at something and not see it

1441
00:56:01,250 --> 00:55:59,040
but we can all look straight at

1442
00:56:02,809 --> 00:56:01,260
something and not see it and we can also

1443
00:56:04,190 --> 00:56:02,819
see something that we haven't looked

1444
00:56:05,390 --> 00:56:04,200
straight at

1445
00:56:07,970 --> 00:56:05,400
um I say this because it's something

1446
00:56:09,890 --> 00:56:07,980
that I often talk about in lectures I I

1447
00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:09,900
was at a conference on psychedelics last

1448
00:56:14,690 --> 00:56:12,240
weekend which was wonderful and I was

1449
00:56:18,049 --> 00:56:14,700
talking about illusionism there

1450
00:56:20,750 --> 00:56:18,059
um and I showed simple demonstrations

1451
00:56:23,390 --> 00:56:20,760
um the the classic one is of course the

1452
00:56:25,010 --> 00:56:23,400
gorillas in our midst video which I'm

1453
00:56:27,170 --> 00:56:25,020
sure you've seen

1454
00:56:29,150 --> 00:56:27,180
um and I won't say more for anyone who

1455
00:56:31,430 --> 00:56:29,160
hasn't seen it to spoil it but you know

1456
00:56:34,250 --> 00:56:31,440
you you you literally must be looking

1457
00:56:37,069 --> 00:56:34,260
straight at The Thing That You Don't See

1458
00:56:39,230 --> 00:56:37,079
but I also do a little trick which is

1459
00:56:42,349 --> 00:56:39,240
does the opposite thing

1460
00:56:45,530 --> 00:56:42,359
um in uh Consciousness explained

1461
00:56:47,690 --> 00:56:45,540
um Dan talked about a room papered

1462
00:56:49,250 --> 00:56:47,700
entirely with identical portraits of

1463
00:56:51,049 --> 00:56:49,260
Marilyn Monroe

1464
00:56:53,750 --> 00:56:51,059
um I just made up a picture of identical

1465
00:56:57,890 --> 00:56:53,760
portraits of Dan Dennis and there's 18

1466
00:56:59,809 --> 00:56:57,900
in this picture and uh you know how many

1467
00:57:01,849 --> 00:56:59,819
circades you can make in a second

1468
00:57:04,309 --> 00:57:01,859
probably five or six or something like

1469
00:57:05,990 --> 00:57:04,319
that and if you just show the picture to

1470
00:57:07,430 --> 00:57:06,000
people for two seconds you know they

1471
00:57:09,829 --> 00:57:07,440
cannot have looked at all the pictures

1472
00:57:13,190 --> 00:57:09,839
and yet what when you ask them what they

1473
00:57:15,349 --> 00:57:13,200
saw they say I saw 18 identical pictures

1474
00:57:17,030 --> 00:57:15,359
of dandeni and one with horns and a scar

1475
00:57:19,069 --> 00:57:17,040
so we've got one with haunts and a scar

1476
00:57:21,950 --> 00:57:19,079
on it and um

1477
00:57:23,450 --> 00:57:21,960
so then I can explain how you're using

1478
00:57:26,569 --> 00:57:23,460
texture detection straight line

1479
00:57:28,490 --> 00:57:26,579
detection all sorts of shortcuts to say

1480
00:57:30,349 --> 00:57:28,500
oh all those pictures are the same you

1481
00:57:32,690 --> 00:57:30,359
don't need to look at them all in order

1482
00:57:36,049 --> 00:57:32,700
to come to the conclusion and that

1483
00:57:38,690 --> 00:57:36,059
conclusion is what you see it's not what

1484
00:57:40,670 --> 00:57:38,700
went in your eyes it's what you will

1485
00:57:43,309 --> 00:57:40,680
report later that you saw

1486
00:57:44,870 --> 00:57:43,319
so it dissociates um you know you can

1487
00:57:46,609 --> 00:57:44,880
you can see what you haven't looked at

1488
00:57:49,309 --> 00:57:46,619
and you can look at what you haven't

1489
00:57:50,690 --> 00:57:49,319
seen this doesn't help with idealism and

1490
00:57:53,089 --> 00:57:50,700
all of that but I thought it's kind of

1491
00:57:56,089 --> 00:57:53,099
relevant too yeah you're making that it

1492
00:57:58,190 --> 00:57:56,099
is it it is I mean blindsight is a super

1493
00:58:00,430 --> 00:57:58,200
curious phenomenon as well there is a

1494
00:58:03,049 --> 00:58:00,440
paper by there are people

1495
00:58:05,150 --> 00:58:03,059
published in 2002

1496
00:58:06,589 --> 00:58:05,160
forgot the name of the altar I know him

1497
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:06,599
personally it's because I take

1498
00:58:11,089 --> 00:58:08,400
amitriptyline for my tinnitus sometimes

1499
00:58:12,950 --> 00:58:11,099
I forget stuff we all love that stuff

1500
00:58:14,210 --> 00:58:12,960
it's a relief when someone else does go

1501
00:58:16,730 --> 00:58:14,220
on

1502
00:58:18,950 --> 00:58:16,740
I remember the the paper was called

1503
00:58:20,450 --> 00:58:18,960
dissociations between Consciousness and

1504
00:58:22,370 --> 00:58:20,460
matter Consciousness or something like

1505
00:58:24,049 --> 00:58:22,380
this so there are multiple mechanisms

1506
00:58:26,329 --> 00:58:24,059
involved

1507
00:58:29,089 --> 00:58:26,339
um in the case you you refer to that you

1508
00:58:31,370 --> 00:58:29,099
don't see the gorilla I bet that if you

1509
00:58:33,290 --> 00:58:31,380
had been instrumented with an EEG cap

1510
00:58:35,510 --> 00:58:33,300
although you don't report seeing the

1511
00:58:37,849 --> 00:58:35,520
gorilla there would be a visual cortex

1512
00:58:39,770 --> 00:58:37,859
activity so it's not the same as what

1513
00:58:42,289 --> 00:58:39,780
this German guys did with the woman with

1514
00:58:44,630 --> 00:58:42,299
the dissociative identity disorder but

1515
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:44,640
it does reflect an important distinction

1516
00:58:49,549 --> 00:58:47,520
that we often don't make even in

1517
00:58:51,589 --> 00:58:49,559
academic discourse which is the

1518
00:58:54,049 --> 00:58:51,599
difference between phenomenal States

1519
00:58:54,829 --> 00:58:54,059
pure and simple experiences pure and

1520
00:58:57,530 --> 00:58:54,839
simple

1521
00:58:59,930 --> 00:58:57,540
and metacognitive phenomenal States

1522
00:59:02,210 --> 00:58:59,940
those require something more those

1523
00:59:05,630 --> 00:59:02,220
require not only the experience

1524
00:59:07,789 --> 00:59:05,640
but the explicit knowing that you are

1525
00:59:10,010 --> 00:59:07,799
having the experience and that's a

1526
00:59:12,410 --> 00:59:10,020
product of attention you need to attend

1527
00:59:14,450 --> 00:59:12,420
to become metacognitive of an experience

1528
00:59:16,849 --> 00:59:14,460
for instance we are always experiencing

1529
00:59:19,130 --> 00:59:16,859
our breathing now the inflation and

1530
00:59:22,130 --> 00:59:19,140
deflation of our rib cage the airflow in

1531
00:59:25,069 --> 00:59:22,140
our nafters but we are most of the time

1532
00:59:27,349 --> 00:59:25,079
not matter conscious of our breathing

1533
00:59:29,030 --> 00:59:27,359
because we don't put our attention there

1534
00:59:33,770 --> 00:59:29,040
we don't bring it under the focus of

1535
00:59:37,130 --> 00:59:33,780
attention so um the the Curious Thing is

1536
00:59:39,109 --> 00:59:37,140
that there can be almost permanent

1537
00:59:42,349 --> 00:59:39,119
dissociations between experience and

1538
00:59:45,170 --> 00:59:42,359
matter experience like Blindside where

1539
00:59:47,030 --> 00:59:45,180
people act as and react as though they

1540
00:59:50,390 --> 00:59:47,040
see something but they can't report it

1541
00:59:53,030 --> 00:59:50,400
and what I'm trying to drive to is that

1542
00:59:55,549 --> 00:59:53,040
there is never such a thing as states

1543
00:59:58,190 --> 00:59:55,559
that are not phenomenal there is never

1544
01:00:00,470 --> 00:59:58,200
such a thing as strictly unconscious

1545
01:00:02,270 --> 01:00:00,480
States even if you go back to the

1546
01:00:05,270 --> 01:00:02,280
history of psychology and how the word

1547
01:00:08,329 --> 01:00:05,280
unconsciousness came from Young Freud

1548
01:00:10,190 --> 01:00:08,339
and bsna and all the others what they

1549
01:00:11,809 --> 01:00:10,200
are describing and it's very clear when

1550
01:00:14,329 --> 01:00:11,819
you read their texts what they are

1551
01:00:16,309 --> 01:00:14,339
describing is meta consciousness they

1552
01:00:17,990 --> 01:00:16,319
are not describing experience they are

1553
01:00:20,210 --> 01:00:18,000
describing knowledge explicit

1554
01:00:23,150 --> 01:00:20,220
introspective knowledge of the

1555
01:00:26,809 --> 01:00:23,160
experience so what this tells us is that

1556
01:00:29,809 --> 01:00:26,819
we may never actually be unconscious we

1557
01:00:32,990 --> 01:00:29,819
know now that if you undergo syncope if

1558
01:00:34,910 --> 01:00:33,000
you pass out people report amazing stuff

1559
01:00:37,250 --> 01:00:34,920
During the period in which they were

1560
01:00:39,589 --> 01:00:37,260
understanding you talked about us being

1561
01:00:43,670 --> 01:00:39,599
conscious and that involves a self who

1562
01:00:45,410 --> 01:00:43,680
is so I can get the idea that the uh

1563
01:00:47,870 --> 01:00:45,420
these things that we call unconscious

1564
01:00:50,390 --> 01:00:47,880
are in some sense mental and then the

1565
01:00:53,390 --> 01:00:50,400
metacognitive is is is added on onto

1566
01:00:56,750 --> 01:00:53,400
that but that usually involves the the

1567
01:00:58,789 --> 01:00:56,760
feeling that I am now paying attention

1568
01:01:00,650 --> 01:00:58,799
to this and I am so on so it's all part

1569
01:01:02,210 --> 01:01:00,660
of the illusion so you could say that

1570
01:01:04,430 --> 01:01:02,220
illusionism at least in the way I'm

1571
01:01:07,390 --> 01:01:04,440
thinking of it is that all that

1572
01:01:11,210 --> 01:01:07,400
metacognitive stuff is is is

1573
01:01:14,569 --> 01:01:11,220
speculations that are untrue and

1574
01:01:17,150 --> 01:01:14,579
underlying that I don't know I it's just

1575
01:01:18,829 --> 01:01:17,160
you as a proper philosopher who have

1576
01:01:20,809 --> 01:01:18,839
thought through all this this idealism

1577
01:01:22,490 --> 01:01:20,819
stuff and you can talk about it

1578
01:01:24,829 --> 01:01:22,500
coherently I'm only getting as far as

1579
01:01:26,870 --> 01:01:24,839
saying all this stuff's wrong but what

1580
01:01:29,210 --> 01:01:26,880
is there when there's a processes going

1581
01:01:31,549 --> 01:01:29,220
on there's responses going on and

1582
01:01:32,809 --> 01:01:31,559
there's not somebody going ah this is

1583
01:01:35,390 --> 01:01:32,819
what I'm

1584
01:01:37,549 --> 01:01:35,400
um you know I'm doing this now that's

1585
01:01:40,490 --> 01:01:37,559
where the illusion comes in thinking

1586
01:01:42,890 --> 01:01:40,500
that what we have to explain is that not

1587
01:01:45,710 --> 01:01:42,900
we have to explain the whole underlying

1588
01:01:47,569 --> 01:01:45,720
thing and I come back again to personal

1589
01:01:48,890 --> 01:01:47,579
experience

1590
01:01:50,829 --> 01:01:48,900
um I tend not to call it introspection

1591
01:01:53,329 --> 01:01:50,839
because that has such historical

1592
01:01:55,190 --> 01:01:53,339
problems associated with it but that

1593
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:55,200
that's what you call it and it's fair

1594
01:02:00,049 --> 01:01:57,839
enough all different kinds mindfulness

1595
01:02:03,230 --> 01:02:00,059
is a real nightmare because there's so

1596
01:02:05,270 --> 01:02:03,240
many different forms of it but one from

1597
01:02:07,910 --> 01:02:05,280
I've done a lot of practice intensive

1598
01:02:10,190 --> 01:02:07,920
practice of mindfulness in ordinary life

1599
01:02:12,289 --> 01:02:10,200
and what can happen is their whole

1600
01:02:16,130 --> 01:02:12,299
metacognitive thing disappears

1601
01:02:17,990 --> 01:02:16,140
and you there's there's stuff happening

1602
01:02:19,430 --> 01:02:18,000
um now if you're an ordinary life you

1603
01:02:21,470 --> 01:02:19,440
can't let go completely of the

1604
01:02:23,329 --> 01:02:21,480
metacognitive stuff you have to have

1605
01:02:25,250 --> 01:02:23,339
some kind of awareness of I'm walking

1606
01:02:28,849 --> 01:02:25,260
along here and whatever

1607
01:02:31,370 --> 01:02:28,859
um but in meditation you can let go of

1608
01:02:32,930 --> 01:02:31,380
it completely and then there seems to be

1609
01:02:35,210 --> 01:02:32,940
this is just I'm talking from personal

1610
01:02:38,030 --> 01:02:35,220
experience here in certain kinds of deep

1611
01:02:39,589 --> 01:02:38,040
meditation particularly on Retreat there

1612
01:02:42,049 --> 01:02:39,599
can be a sense in which there's stuff

1613
01:02:44,630 --> 01:02:42,059
happening but it's not happening to

1614
01:02:46,609 --> 01:02:44,640
anybody and it's not even happening in

1615
01:02:47,630 --> 01:02:46,619
time or space it's kind of lost all

1616
01:02:50,030 --> 01:02:47,640
those things

1617
01:02:51,650 --> 01:02:50,040
there's where I kind of go to try to

1618
01:02:53,809 --> 01:02:51,660
understand things and I don't get very

1619
01:02:55,549 --> 01:02:53,819
far and maybe and what you've been

1620
01:02:57,770 --> 01:02:55,559
telling me today I've got well not maybe

1621
01:02:59,690 --> 01:02:57,780
I have got more possible ways of

1622
01:03:02,390 --> 01:02:59,700
thinking about it

1623
01:03:04,549 --> 01:03:02,400
um I I'm not um completely buying it

1624
01:03:07,549 --> 01:03:04,559
because I don't understand you well

1625
01:03:08,930 --> 01:03:07,559
enough but I think we actually have some

1626
01:03:12,410 --> 01:03:08,940
commonality

1627
01:03:13,910 --> 01:03:12,420
in what I've just said there well by the

1628
01:03:16,190 --> 01:03:13,920
way I just remembered the name I had

1629
01:03:19,430 --> 01:03:16,200
forgotten Jonathan's cooler everybody

1630
01:03:20,990 --> 01:03:19,440
should know his name yeah so he

1631
01:03:23,089 --> 01:03:21,000
published this dissociations between

1632
01:03:25,190 --> 01:03:23,099
awareness and meta awareness back in

1633
01:03:27,410 --> 01:03:25,200
2002 a fantastic paper that I think

1634
01:03:28,970 --> 01:03:27,420
everybody should read I'm going to write

1635
01:03:30,589 --> 01:03:28,980
that out I'm doing something with him in

1636
01:03:31,789 --> 01:03:30,599
in the near future so that will be a

1637
01:03:32,470 --> 01:03:31,799
good thing

1638
01:03:34,789 --> 01:03:32,480
um

1639
01:03:36,289 --> 01:03:34,799
associations between Consciousness and

1640
01:03:37,069 --> 01:03:36,299
meta-consciousness or something like

1641
01:03:39,410 --> 01:03:37,079
this

1642
01:03:42,049 --> 01:03:39,420
2002.

1643
01:03:43,609 --> 01:03:42,059
um got it thank you

1644
01:03:47,750 --> 01:03:43,619
I

1645
01:03:49,970 --> 01:03:47,760
don't totally go along with your use of

1646
01:03:51,349 --> 01:03:49,980
the word illusionism and and I I don't

1647
01:03:52,730 --> 01:03:51,359
blame you for that or anything but I'm

1648
01:03:55,849 --> 01:03:52,740
not comfortable with it and the reason

1649
01:03:57,770 --> 01:03:55,859
is the following defined so

1650
01:03:59,750 --> 01:03:57,780
vaguely

1651
01:04:02,930 --> 01:03:59,760
the history of science is the history of

1652
01:04:04,430 --> 01:04:02,940
Illusion because hardly anything is what

1653
01:04:05,829 --> 01:04:04,440
it seems to be

1654
01:04:08,329 --> 01:04:05,839
I mean

1655
01:04:11,630 --> 01:04:08,339
you see the whole history of science is

1656
01:04:13,970 --> 01:04:11,640
a testament to that so if the word is so

1657
01:04:16,609 --> 01:04:13,980
broad that it encompasses so much it

1658
01:04:18,829 --> 01:04:16,619
becomes a useless word because we can't

1659
01:04:22,670 --> 01:04:18,839
specify something out of the background

1660
01:04:25,309 --> 01:04:22,680
uh by using it but don't forget all I'm

1661
01:04:27,829 --> 01:04:25,319
saying is consciousness is an illusion

1662
01:04:29,510 --> 01:04:27,839
and by that I guess what I mean is the

1663
01:04:31,069 --> 01:04:29,520
way people talk about Consciousness the

1664
01:04:32,930 --> 01:04:31,079
theories they build about Consciousness

1665
01:04:34,730 --> 01:04:32,940
the whole idea that Consciousness is

1666
01:04:38,270 --> 01:04:34,740
there's such a thing as Consciousness

1667
01:04:40,849 --> 01:04:38,280
itself which can be separated from you

1668
01:04:43,609 --> 01:04:40,859
know matter from unconscious States and

1669
01:04:44,930 --> 01:04:43,619
so on all of that's the problem I'm not

1670
01:04:46,910 --> 01:04:44,940
trying to say

1671
01:04:49,069 --> 01:04:46,920
um anything about the outside world on

1672
01:04:52,010 --> 01:04:49,079
physics and so on as being illusory I'm

1673
01:04:54,589 --> 01:04:52,020
simply talking about people's Concepts

1674
01:04:55,270 --> 01:04:54,599
matter whatever

1675
01:04:57,710 --> 01:04:55,280
um

1676
01:05:00,230 --> 01:04:57,720
Concepts about the nature of their own

1677
01:05:02,329 --> 01:05:00,240
minds and if you can clear away that

1678
01:05:04,690 --> 01:05:02,339
problem whether you do it by personal

1679
01:05:08,030 --> 01:05:04,700
practice or by some kind of theorizing

1680
01:05:10,309 --> 01:05:08,040
then I think we might be making progress

1681
01:05:12,890 --> 01:05:10,319
that's as far as I go really which is

1682
01:05:14,750 --> 01:05:12,900
pathetic I mean I you know I

1683
01:05:16,250 --> 01:05:14,760
I I would I don't blame you in the least

1684
01:05:17,930 --> 01:05:16,260
for saying well you know it's so it's

1685
01:05:19,490 --> 01:05:17,940
too vague and so on but I just feel it

1686
01:05:22,250 --> 01:05:19,500
it has to be done because I get so

1687
01:05:25,690 --> 01:05:22,260
frustrated with the theorists and the

1688
01:05:27,950 --> 01:05:25,700
experimenters and so on who constantly

1689
01:05:31,190 --> 01:05:27,960
refer to Consciousness as though it's

1690
01:05:33,470 --> 01:05:31,200
something produced by the brain and

1691
01:05:35,750 --> 01:05:33,480
that's the heart of what I'm trying to

1692
01:05:37,190 --> 01:05:35,760
get away with if that helps at all I

1693
01:05:38,750 --> 01:05:37,200
sympathize

1694
01:05:41,809 --> 01:05:38,760
um completely so I don't like the word

1695
01:05:43,490 --> 01:05:41,819
but I sympathize with it I I I'll give

1696
01:05:45,770 --> 01:05:43,500
you by the way I don't believe in a

1697
01:05:48,230 --> 01:05:45,780
personal self it's just not there it's a

1698
01:05:50,930 --> 01:05:48,240
narrative in a subject so every time I

1699
01:05:52,910 --> 01:05:50,940
say I I'm forced to say this by the

1700
01:05:54,589 --> 01:05:52,920
English language there are languages

1701
01:05:58,309 --> 01:05:54,599
that don't have that particular pronoun

1702
01:06:00,470 --> 01:05:58,319
but I don't speak them so I'm forced to

1703
01:06:02,089 --> 01:06:00,480
say which language Which languages uh

1704
01:06:04,910 --> 01:06:02,099
it's on some

1705
01:06:06,650 --> 01:06:04,920
it doesn't even have a written form I

1706
01:06:08,510 --> 01:06:06,660
think it's um we would call them

1707
01:06:10,609 --> 01:06:08,520
primitive languages although I hate this

1708
01:06:12,710 --> 01:06:10,619
word I think it's an inappropriate word

1709
01:06:15,770 --> 01:06:12,720
but there are languages in which there

1710
01:06:17,870 --> 01:06:15,780
is no first person pronoun so there are

1711
01:06:20,329 --> 01:06:17,880
some others in a simpler way which which

1712
01:06:22,190 --> 01:06:20,339
although they kind of infer it I mean I

1713
01:06:24,049 --> 01:06:22,200
I tried to learn polish once because my

1714
01:06:25,910 --> 01:06:24,059
first husband was polish and there isn't

1715
01:06:28,130 --> 01:06:25,920
they don't use the word iron in the same

1716
01:06:29,990 --> 01:06:28,140
heavy way that English uses it all the

1717
01:06:31,609 --> 01:06:30,000
time it's very often incorporated into

1718
01:06:33,549 --> 01:06:31,619
other words or it's such a long time ago

1719
01:06:36,770 --> 01:06:33,559
that I tried to learn it

1720
01:06:38,450 --> 01:06:36,780
now but but like your point I guess is

1721
01:06:40,609 --> 01:06:38,460
is just to say

1722
01:06:43,609 --> 01:06:40,619
languages that were different um

1723
01:06:44,930 --> 01:06:43,619
solidity to the concept of self and of

1724
01:06:46,549 --> 01:06:44,940
course you and I have exactly the same

1725
01:06:47,990 --> 01:06:46,559
problem talking to people who haven't

1726
01:06:50,329 --> 01:06:48,000
thought about this stuff because we have

1727
01:06:51,710 --> 01:06:50,339
to say well what I think illusionism is

1728
01:06:55,309 --> 01:06:51,720
the best theory well who's the thing

1729
01:06:56,870 --> 01:06:55,319
who's thinking in there no but to go

1730
01:06:59,089 --> 01:06:56,880
back to the point that you raised um

1731
01:06:59,890 --> 01:06:59,099
I'll give you an example of a problem I

1732
01:07:04,910 --> 01:06:59,900
face

1733
01:07:07,250 --> 01:07:04,920
regarding people people's very loose use

1734
01:07:09,589 --> 01:07:07,260
of words like mind Consciousness and

1735
01:07:12,410 --> 01:07:09,599
matter and other prejudices that are

1736
01:07:13,549 --> 01:07:12,420
unexamed uh and and go into that so

1737
01:07:14,450 --> 01:07:13,559
people don't even know what they're

1738
01:07:16,130 --> 01:07:14,460
thinking they don't know what

1739
01:07:19,930 --> 01:07:16,140
assumptions they're making so to give

1740
01:07:22,490 --> 01:07:19,940
you a concrete example I am often

1741
01:07:25,069 --> 01:07:22,500
faced with the falling so-called

1742
01:07:27,410 --> 01:07:25,079
refutation of idealism it goes as

1743
01:07:29,809 --> 01:07:27,420
follows well Bernardo you say you say

1744
01:07:32,329 --> 01:07:29,819
that everything is mental so everything

1745
01:07:34,250 --> 01:07:32,339
has to be efficacious insofar and it is

1746
01:07:36,529 --> 01:07:34,260
mental only mental states are causally

1747
01:07:38,630 --> 01:07:36,539
efficacious but I can give you an

1748
01:07:41,450 --> 01:07:38,640
example that it's not the case look if

1749
01:07:43,430 --> 01:07:41,460
you give me your arm and your arm and I

1750
01:07:45,770 --> 01:07:43,440
stick a needle in it that's a very

1751
01:07:47,450 --> 01:07:45,780
physical thing and you will move your

1752
01:07:49,609 --> 01:07:47,460
arm you will register paying and you

1753
01:07:51,589 --> 01:07:49,619
will move your arm or we don't need to

1754
01:07:54,069 --> 01:07:51,599
go that far what if I punch you in the

1755
01:07:57,170 --> 01:07:54,079
face or if you drink a bottle of wine

1756
01:07:59,569 --> 01:07:57,180
this very physical thing has a causal

1757
01:08:01,789 --> 01:07:59,579
effect on mental inner states Ergo

1758
01:08:04,370 --> 01:08:01,799
idealism is false

1759
01:08:07,730 --> 01:08:04,380
now you see the problem there for the

1760
01:08:10,430 --> 01:08:07,740
idealist there are no such things as

1761
01:08:13,250 --> 01:08:10,440
physical States outside mind all

1762
01:08:16,010 --> 01:08:13,260
material things are representations of

1763
01:08:19,249 --> 01:08:16,020
mental States so that needle going into

1764
01:08:21,050 --> 01:08:19,259
my arm is a dashboard representation of

1765
01:08:24,050 --> 01:08:21,060
a mental process interfering with

1766
01:08:26,510 --> 01:08:24,060
another across its dissociative boundary

1767
01:08:29,630 --> 01:08:26,520
that glass that bottle of wine that I

1768
01:08:32,689 --> 01:08:29,640
drink that's an icon on on my dashboard

1769
01:08:35,689 --> 01:08:32,699
that represents a transpersonal mental

1770
01:08:38,630 --> 01:08:35,699
state that I am bringing into my

1771
01:08:39,910 --> 01:08:38,640
dissociative boundary by ingesting it so

1772
01:08:43,430 --> 01:08:39,920
there is no

1773
01:08:45,229 --> 01:08:43,440
a bottle of wine as a material thing the

1774
01:08:46,970 --> 01:08:45,239
bottle wine the bottle of wine is a

1775
01:08:49,550 --> 01:08:46,980
representation of a mental state only

1776
01:08:51,289 --> 01:08:49,560
mental states are causal but it's very

1777
01:08:54,229 --> 01:08:51,299
difficult for people to make this switch

1778
01:08:57,229 --> 01:08:54,239
from dualism dualism seems to be so

1779
01:08:59,209 --> 01:08:57,239
bloody ingrained in language in our

1780
01:09:01,729 --> 01:08:59,219
logical assumptions in how we see

1781
01:09:03,829 --> 01:09:01,739
everything that people just even when

1782
01:09:04,970 --> 01:09:03,839
they think even when they agree with

1783
01:09:11,329 --> 01:09:04,980
idealism

1784
01:09:13,870 --> 01:09:11,339
often see this in in courses I give that

1785
01:09:17,150 --> 01:09:13,880
even the idealists they fall for this

1786
01:09:19,430 --> 01:09:17,160
constantly so yeah that's an illusion

1787
01:09:22,669 --> 01:09:19,440
it's an illusion that there are no

1788
01:09:25,430 --> 01:09:22,679
mental States so from that perspective I

1789
01:09:26,269 --> 01:09:25,440
agree I am with you but I don't think

1790
01:09:28,610 --> 01:09:26,279
it's

1791
01:09:31,610 --> 01:09:28,620
I I don't want to keep on existing on

1792
01:09:34,130 --> 01:09:31,620
this but I prefer to to say specifically

1793
01:09:36,590 --> 01:09:34,140
what I mean like I just did yeah and to

1794
01:09:39,070 --> 01:09:36,600
just say illusionism yeah you see what I

1795
01:09:41,450 --> 01:09:39,080
mean yeah yeah

1796
01:09:44,809 --> 01:09:41,460
but you're making me think there

1797
01:09:48,470 --> 01:09:44,819
something quite uncomfortable so you've

1798
01:09:51,110 --> 01:09:48,480
got the let's say the drug that affects

1799
01:09:54,229 --> 01:09:51,120
the brain or the pin that goes in my arm

1800
01:09:58,610 --> 01:09:54,239
so the pin and the all those processes

1801
01:10:00,470 --> 01:09:58,620
are mental inequality and then hear me

1802
01:10:02,930 --> 01:10:00,480
out on this one I'm struggling to get it

1803
01:10:05,090 --> 01:10:02,940
clear but I'm then constantly asking

1804
01:10:07,310 --> 01:10:05,100
myself well why are the regularities

1805
01:10:09,950 --> 01:10:07,320
that are why does that does that happen

1806
01:10:13,189 --> 01:10:09,960
why are there as it were laws of nature

1807
01:10:15,350 --> 01:10:13,199
that make uh that you know the the

1808
01:10:17,630 --> 01:10:15,360
liquid run along there and all of those

1809
01:10:21,229 --> 01:10:17,640
things well then I realize

1810
01:10:24,470 --> 01:10:21,239
that as far as I know physics also can't

1811
01:10:26,510 --> 01:10:24,480
answer that question because if you ask

1812
01:10:29,630 --> 01:10:26,520
something like well why is Planck's

1813
01:10:31,669 --> 01:10:29,640
constant what it is or why is

1814
01:10:33,950 --> 01:10:31,679
um at the speed of light what it is I

1815
01:10:38,209 --> 01:10:33,960
don't think their answers are there

1816
01:10:43,970 --> 01:10:38,219
um so perhaps uh it's unfair to ask the

1817
01:10:47,090 --> 01:10:43,980
the um idealist uh to explain why the

1818
01:10:49,610 --> 01:10:47,100
mental properties of the world give rise

1819
01:10:52,729 --> 01:10:49,620
to or are

1820
01:10:55,130 --> 01:10:52,739
capable of trees and sky and all the

1821
01:10:58,070 --> 01:10:55,140
other things

1822
01:10:59,270 --> 01:10:58,080
the answer would be to be is to have

1823
01:11:04,250 --> 01:10:59,280
properties

1824
01:11:05,930 --> 01:11:04,260
and therefore it behaves the way it does

1825
01:11:07,250 --> 01:11:05,940
because it is what it is instead of

1826
01:11:09,410 --> 01:11:07,260
something else

1827
01:11:13,330 --> 01:11:09,420
nature is what it is so it does what it

1828
01:11:17,090 --> 01:11:13,340
does it's not something else

1829
01:11:21,110 --> 01:11:17,100
the self that I could imagine that is uh

1830
01:11:23,630 --> 01:11:21,120
the author inside of these words and has

1831
01:11:27,050 --> 01:11:23,640
Free Will and all of that

1832
01:11:28,750 --> 01:11:27,060
would you say that it is what it is

1833
01:11:32,750 --> 01:11:28,760
because

1834
01:11:34,910 --> 01:11:32,760
okay I think nature is what it is and

1835
01:11:37,430 --> 01:11:34,920
the illusion of a personal self is a

1836
01:11:39,169 --> 01:11:37,440
behavior of nature

1837
01:11:42,110 --> 01:11:39,179
in other words it's a narrative behavior

1838
01:11:43,310 --> 01:11:42,120
of Nature and so I want to ask why it

1839
01:11:46,810 --> 01:11:43,320
throws up

1840
01:11:50,390 --> 01:11:46,820
this self all the time I mean in English

1841
01:11:52,550 --> 01:11:50,400
view you can sort of say well the the

1842
01:11:54,290 --> 01:11:52,560
system needs a representation of its own

1843
01:11:55,910 --> 01:11:54,300
capabilities and so it builds such a

1844
01:11:58,490 --> 01:11:55,920
representation and there it is and then

1845
01:12:01,070 --> 01:11:58,500
you can't say why it feels like anything

1846
01:12:03,709 --> 01:12:01,080
because materialism can't

1847
01:12:05,510 --> 01:12:03,719
um well does idealism really do better

1848
01:12:07,310 --> 01:12:05,520
on that

1849
01:12:09,709 --> 01:12:07,320
yeah you're asking pretty pretty

1850
01:12:11,450 --> 01:12:09,719
fundamental science uh philosophy of

1851
01:12:13,550 --> 01:12:11,460
science questions that they apply to any

1852
01:12:16,850 --> 01:12:13,560
metaphysics not only idealism I think

1853
01:12:19,189 --> 01:12:16,860
but uh but I'll try to answer

1854
01:12:20,990 --> 01:12:19,199
there is some use to the fiction of the

1855
01:12:23,209 --> 01:12:21,000
personal self you need to know to which

1856
01:12:27,229 --> 01:12:23,219
mouth to bring the fork

1857
01:12:28,490 --> 01:12:27,239
otherwise you starve so the the ego is a

1858
01:12:30,770 --> 01:12:28,500
useful tool

1859
01:12:32,570 --> 01:12:30,780
so hang on any animal will eat without

1860
01:12:35,030 --> 01:12:32,580
having I don't think that my cat has

1861
01:12:37,850 --> 01:12:35,040
much of a personal self but it is they

1862
01:12:40,130 --> 01:12:37,860
have a body schema too yeah indeed and

1863
01:12:42,229 --> 01:12:40,140
an attention schemer I imagine what they

1864
01:12:44,570 --> 01:12:42,239
don't have is matter cognition well now

1865
01:12:47,810 --> 01:12:44,580
metacognition is when the subject sort

1866
01:12:49,910 --> 01:12:47,820
of abstracts itself away from its own

1867
01:12:52,130 --> 01:12:49,920
experiential content

1868
01:12:55,130 --> 01:12:52,140
and that's why we say

1869
01:12:57,530 --> 01:12:55,140
I feel pain or I have hunger

1870
01:13:02,209 --> 01:12:57,540
because without metacognition we would

1871
01:13:04,790 --> 01:13:02,219
say I am pain I am hunger because the

1872
01:13:06,290 --> 01:13:04,800
being of the subject is its state and

1873
01:13:09,830 --> 01:13:06,300
the state of the subject is the

1874
01:13:11,990 --> 01:13:09,840
experience that it's quote undergoing so

1875
01:13:15,470 --> 01:13:12,000
the moment we say I have pain

1876
01:13:17,689 --> 01:13:15,480
or I will go there or I feel this way

1877
01:13:20,990 --> 01:13:17,699
that that's already a body schema with

1878
01:13:23,030 --> 01:13:21,000
metacognition on top so a metacognized

1879
01:13:26,030 --> 01:13:23,040
subjects separate from the rest of the

1880
01:13:28,250 --> 01:13:26,040
world is there a use to this I'm sure

1881
01:13:30,169 --> 01:13:28,260
there is a use to this so it's a it's a

1882
01:13:31,310 --> 01:13:30,179
very easy well I've put forward a

1883
01:13:32,870 --> 01:13:31,320
different Theory this I won't go into

1884
01:13:34,790 --> 01:13:32,880
now but Kurt probably knows something

1885
01:13:36,770 --> 01:13:34,800
about it that it's actually a product of

1886
01:13:39,169 --> 01:13:36,780
magnetic Evolution it's the force of

1887
01:13:40,910 --> 01:13:39,179
memes particularly words that get on

1888
01:13:43,189 --> 01:13:40,920
better when they're associated with the

1889
01:13:45,709 --> 01:13:43,199
I word and that our culture is

1890
01:13:47,510 --> 01:13:45,719
constantly um backing up this idea of

1891
01:13:53,530 --> 01:13:47,520
itself and making it bigger and bigger

1892
01:13:59,330 --> 01:13:55,669
says he wants to talk about some other

1893
01:14:01,729 --> 01:13:59,340
time I do feel that I understand a lot

1894
01:14:03,950 --> 01:14:01,739
better now so I rather enjoyed this

1895
01:14:05,689 --> 01:14:03,960
conversation even though I find it quite

1896
01:14:08,030 --> 01:14:05,699
stressful and difficult trying to get my

1897
01:14:10,070 --> 01:14:08,040
head around it and say something vaguely

1898
01:14:12,110 --> 01:14:10,080
intelligent in response

1899
01:14:21,890 --> 01:14:12,120
um but thank you very much for

1900
01:14:27,229 --> 01:14:25,430
advance in in understanding something

1901
01:14:29,390 --> 01:14:27,239
that you were not familiar with before

1902
01:14:31,610 --> 01:14:29,400
so could this to you for that I don't

1903
01:14:35,830 --> 01:14:31,620
know whether I would be able to make

1904
01:14:39,470 --> 01:14:35,840
this advance so quickly it took my ears

1905
01:14:41,030 --> 01:14:39,480
pardon it took me years of course of

1906
01:14:43,070 --> 01:14:41,040
course but then I've been worrying about

1907
01:14:45,470 --> 01:14:43,080
Consciousness for years so you know

1908
01:14:46,850 --> 01:14:45,480
that's why you said so many things that

1909
01:14:49,370 --> 01:14:46,860
sparked off things I've thought about

1910
01:14:51,470 --> 01:14:49,380
over all these many many years when I've

1911
01:14:53,270 --> 01:14:51,480
been obsessed with Consciousness

1912
01:14:54,950 --> 01:14:53,280
um I haven't thought about them in in

1913
01:14:57,410 --> 01:14:54,960
the exact way that you are but I've

1914
01:15:01,130 --> 01:14:57,420
thought about them enough at least to

1915
01:15:02,270 --> 01:15:01,140
recognize engage with it you know yeah

1916
01:15:05,750 --> 01:15:02,280
well

1917
01:15:08,149 --> 01:15:05,760
know us too but Bernardo knows that I

1918
01:15:10,250 --> 01:15:08,159
consider a theologian a success when I

1919
01:15:12,770 --> 01:15:10,260
could effectively have popcorn here and

1920
01:15:14,870 --> 01:15:12,780
just watch and watch yeah yeah because

1921
01:15:16,790 --> 01:15:14,880
it means that you both are from what I

1922
01:15:18,290 --> 01:15:16,800
saw trying to understand one another's

1923
01:15:20,149 --> 01:15:18,300
point of view rather than trying to

1924
01:15:21,229 --> 01:15:20,159
understand in order to debate you're

1925
01:15:23,510 --> 01:15:21,239
trying to understand because you're

1926
01:15:25,729 --> 01:15:23,520
curious so if I could summarize it went

1927
01:15:27,410 --> 01:15:25,739
something like initially Sue you're

1928
01:15:29,270 --> 01:15:27,420
saying look this is I'm an Illusionist

1929
01:15:31,010 --> 01:15:29,280
and then bernardo's saying well firstly

1930
01:15:33,169 --> 01:15:31,020
that's not what I understand illusionism

1931
01:15:35,209 --> 01:15:33,179
to be there are several others so that's

1932
01:15:37,550 --> 01:15:35,219
different secondly if what you're saying

1933
01:15:39,410 --> 01:15:37,560
is most of what we think of is the case

1934
01:15:41,330 --> 01:15:39,420
as not so in the same way that we think

1935
01:15:43,310 --> 01:15:41,340
that we model it well then is that not

1936
01:15:45,169 --> 01:15:43,320
trivial to the point of it being useless

1937
01:15:47,870 --> 01:15:45,179
then somewhat of an agreement there

1938
01:15:49,610 --> 01:15:47,880
maybe saying that well look most of the

1939
01:15:50,990 --> 01:15:49,620
world has that illusion and then Bernard

1940
01:15:53,030 --> 01:15:51,000
was like yeah but most of the academics

1941
01:15:55,189 --> 01:15:53,040
that we interact with don't like list me

1942
01:15:57,890 --> 01:15:55,199
one who studies philosophy who thinks in

1943
01:16:01,310 --> 01:15:57,900
the folk Manner and then it became much

1944
01:16:04,149 --> 01:16:01,320
of Bernardo explaining idealism so

1945
01:16:08,810 --> 01:16:07,010
to Susan she did specify more concretely

1946
01:16:10,610 --> 01:16:08,820
what is the illusion that she's talking

1947
01:16:13,370 --> 01:16:10,620
about it has to do with introspective

1948
01:16:15,709 --> 01:16:13,380
Illusions so that's narrow down things

1949
01:16:16,610 --> 01:16:15,719
quite a bit uh when she said that why

1950
01:16:18,410 --> 01:16:16,620
did you not want to use the word

1951
01:16:19,430 --> 01:16:18,420
introspection earlier sue you said it

1952
01:16:21,530 --> 01:16:19,440
was loaded

1953
01:16:23,630 --> 01:16:21,540
oh just because of

1954
01:16:26,750 --> 01:16:23,640
um the way when it happened in the early

1955
01:16:29,510 --> 01:16:26,760
20th century and or late 19th century

1956
01:16:31,610 --> 01:16:29,520
and people got to argue you know they

1957
01:16:33,050 --> 01:16:31,620
had to do these exercises of

1958
01:16:34,550 --> 01:16:33,060
introspecting on when they were looking

1959
01:16:36,290 --> 01:16:34,560
at a certain thing and then they'd argue

1960
01:16:39,530 --> 01:16:36,300
what they found and it became rather

1961
01:16:41,510 --> 01:16:39,540
useless and I suppose brought up in

1962
01:16:44,570 --> 01:16:41,520
Psychology and learning about that the

1963
01:16:47,030 --> 01:16:44,580
word in introspection has a has a bad

1964
01:16:48,770 --> 01:16:47,040
press but perhaps it doesn't that

1965
01:16:50,510 --> 01:16:48,780
doesn't apply to most people who hear

1966
01:16:52,310 --> 01:16:50,520
about introspection

1967
01:16:54,410 --> 01:16:52,320
um I mean all it means is looking within

1968
01:16:56,390 --> 01:16:54,420
now before that happened William James

1969
01:16:58,669 --> 01:16:56,400
was really good on the importance of

1970
01:16:59,930 --> 01:16:58,679
looking within and seeing what we there

1971
01:17:02,810 --> 01:16:59,940
find

1972
01:17:06,470 --> 01:17:02,820
um in his 1890 book for example

1973
01:17:08,450 --> 01:17:06,480
um but but uh behaviorism partly came

1974
01:17:11,149 --> 01:17:08,460
about because of the failure of

1975
01:17:13,370 --> 01:17:11,159
introspectionism and so we were landed

1976
01:17:15,530 --> 01:17:13,380
with a very restrictive behaviorism for

1977
01:17:16,970 --> 01:17:15,540
a long time in Psychology so that was

1978
01:17:19,070 --> 01:17:16,980
why but I don't think it's important

1979
01:17:22,130 --> 01:17:19,080
really I shouldn't have said that

1980
01:17:24,530 --> 01:17:22,140
Skinner's Black Box those were very dark

1981
01:17:27,050 --> 01:17:24,540
times yeah they were yeah like being

1982
01:17:29,570 --> 01:17:27,060
inside the Pacific box yeah

1983
01:17:32,209 --> 01:17:29,580
okay before you both get going the last

1984
01:17:34,250 --> 01:17:32,219
question I had well I guess it's the oh

1985
01:17:36,830 --> 01:17:34,260
second question I had is it's difficult

1986
01:17:38,450 --> 01:17:36,840
to ask Sue this because you don't Place

1987
01:17:40,729 --> 01:17:38,460
yourself in opposition to something

1988
01:17:42,709 --> 01:17:40,739
whereas Bernardo as far as I see from

1989
01:17:44,149 --> 01:17:42,719
you if you're in opposition to something

1990
01:17:47,630 --> 01:17:44,159
it would be materialism so let's just

1991
01:17:50,330 --> 01:17:47,640
take materialism what evidence or events

1992
01:17:52,729 --> 01:17:50,340
can occur that would make you reframe

1993
01:17:55,370 --> 01:17:52,739
your world view to the opposite side so

1994
01:17:57,709 --> 01:17:55,380
materialism like hypothetically what

1995
01:17:59,810 --> 01:17:57,719
could happen What could you see what

1996
01:18:01,490 --> 01:17:59,820
evidence would exist and sued the same

1997
01:18:03,290 --> 01:18:01,500
for you but it's difficult for me to

1998
01:18:05,270 --> 01:18:03,300
place yourself in opposition to say you

1999
01:18:06,770 --> 01:18:05,280
move to the other side so I don't know

2000
01:18:09,110 --> 01:18:06,780
well I can give you a different other

2001
01:18:11,990 --> 01:18:09,120
side YouTube because this comes up a lot

2002
01:18:15,950 --> 01:18:12,000
in my life if there were convincing

2003
01:18:18,770 --> 01:18:15,960
evidence of telepathy or of

2004
01:18:21,709 --> 01:18:18,780
um well let's stick stick with telepathy

2005
01:18:23,630 --> 01:18:21,719
um that was done with experiments with

2006
01:18:26,090 --> 01:18:23,640
adequate design and the statistics

2007
01:18:29,330 --> 01:18:26,100
properly done and with enough subjects

2008
01:18:31,810 --> 01:18:29,340
and so on so on uh and I became

2009
01:18:35,330 --> 01:18:31,820
convinced that telepathy was possible

2010
01:18:37,669 --> 01:18:35,340
then most of what I've thought about is

2011
01:18:39,590 --> 01:18:37,679
wrong in fact most of science is wrong

2012
01:18:41,750 --> 01:18:39,600
and you know the world changes

2013
01:18:43,729 --> 01:18:41,760
dramatically if that were the case but

2014
01:18:45,229 --> 01:18:43,739
but you're an automatic realist you said

2015
01:18:48,830 --> 01:18:45,239
it in the beginning

2016
01:18:51,770 --> 01:18:48,840
no no no I I it's not about materialism

2017
01:18:53,689 --> 01:18:51,780
it's about the way minds work

2018
01:18:55,550 --> 01:18:53,699
um because if there were telepathy then

2019
01:18:57,110 --> 01:18:55,560
most of the psychology experiments that

2020
01:18:58,910 --> 01:18:57,120
we do wouldn't work because you have to

2021
01:19:00,470 --> 01:18:58,920
have you know control conditions in

2022
01:19:02,390 --> 01:19:00,480
which people don't know what's going on

2023
01:19:04,130 --> 01:19:02,400
and then things like the placebo effect

2024
01:19:05,930 --> 01:19:04,140
would be completely

2025
01:19:07,669 --> 01:19:05,940
um changed because you could never

2026
01:19:09,770 --> 01:19:07,679
really be sure what people knew or

2027
01:19:11,870 --> 01:19:09,780
didn't know because they'd know they'd

2028
01:19:13,250 --> 01:19:11,880
know more than you think they know if

2029
01:19:14,830 --> 01:19:13,260
there was telepathy was possible it

2030
01:19:17,570 --> 01:19:14,840
would just ruin a whole lot of stuff

2031
01:19:19,790 --> 01:19:17,580
whether you're a materialist or not it

2032
01:19:21,890 --> 01:19:19,800
would have a dramatic effect on my

2033
01:19:24,110 --> 01:19:21,900
thinking about the nature of mind

2034
01:19:26,990 --> 01:19:24,120
couldn't it just increase the error bar

2035
01:19:28,250 --> 01:19:27,000
and not invalidate everything

2036
01:19:31,850 --> 01:19:28,260
uh

2037
01:19:33,590 --> 01:19:31,860
to Think Through that's a that's a

2038
01:19:35,330 --> 01:19:33,600
perfectly reasonable question

2039
01:19:36,709 --> 01:19:35,340
um I think it the error bars will be so

2040
01:19:38,330 --> 01:19:36,719
huge that a whole lot of things would

2041
01:19:39,649 --> 01:19:38,340
just collapse

2042
01:19:41,870 --> 01:19:39,659
um but

2043
01:19:44,630 --> 01:19:41,880
I don't know I'm more optimistic than

2044
01:19:47,330 --> 01:19:44,640
you in this regard yeah you think you

2045
01:19:49,310 --> 01:19:47,340
think it might happen I I think no

2046
01:19:51,350 --> 01:19:49,320
process in nature is perfect

2047
01:19:54,229 --> 01:19:51,360
when it stops raining the ground doesn't

2048
01:19:55,850 --> 01:19:54,239
dry immediately when something Burns it

2049
01:19:57,950 --> 01:19:55,860
doesn't consume everything there is to

2050
01:20:00,050 --> 01:19:57,960
be combusted no processing nature is

2051
01:20:02,990 --> 01:20:00,060
perfect dissociation wouldn't be perfect

2052
01:20:04,430 --> 01:20:03,000
either especially under laboratory

2053
01:20:06,169 --> 01:20:04,440
conditions when you don't have that

2054
01:20:08,450 --> 01:20:06,179
emotional charge of real life

2055
01:20:10,610 --> 01:20:08,460
circumstances uh

2056
01:20:12,590 --> 01:20:10,620
um then you would be highly dissociated

2057
01:20:13,850 --> 01:20:12,600
but under normal circumstances there

2058
01:20:16,729 --> 01:20:13,860
could be

2059
01:20:18,950 --> 01:20:16,739
you know occasions in which the

2060
01:20:20,630 --> 01:20:18,960
dissociation becomes porous and I'm

2061
01:20:22,430 --> 01:20:20,640
saying this to you because I witnessed

2062
01:20:23,810 --> 01:20:22,440
one of these cases that I just cannot

2063
01:20:25,010 --> 01:20:23,820
dismiss

2064
01:20:28,250 --> 01:20:25,020
um but I don't think it would even

2065
01:20:32,090 --> 01:20:28,260
validate science because even if it can

2066
01:20:35,810 --> 01:20:32,100
happen it happens so rarely now and now

2067
01:20:38,090 --> 01:20:35,820
it's not even rare but the strength the

2068
01:20:41,689 --> 01:20:38,100
degree of the effect

2069
01:20:43,310 --> 01:20:41,699
is so tiny that's statistically speaking

2070
01:20:45,649 --> 01:20:43,320
I don't think it would invalidate

2071
01:20:47,510 --> 01:20:45,659
anything obviously we can't read each

2072
01:20:49,430 --> 01:20:47,520
other's minds all the time

2073
01:20:51,050 --> 01:20:49,440
obviously we don't know what's going on

2074
01:20:54,050 --> 01:20:51,060
in China all the time

2075
01:20:56,990 --> 01:20:54,060
right so even if there is some porosity

2076
01:20:58,610 --> 01:20:57,000
under emotionally charged circumstances

2077
01:21:00,649 --> 01:20:58,620
of normal life

2078
01:21:02,630 --> 01:21:00,659
they wouldn't apply on their laboratory

2079
01:21:04,850 --> 01:21:02,640
conditions anyway and that's why we

2080
01:21:07,430 --> 01:21:04,860
don't see it under laboratory conditions

2081
01:21:10,070 --> 01:21:07,440
so I wouldn't be worried at least

2082
01:21:11,689 --> 01:21:10,080
personally I'm not worried and I saw one

2083
01:21:13,250 --> 01:21:11,699
no I'm not saying I'm worried it would

2084
01:21:14,630 --> 01:21:13,260
be terribly exciting and I've said so

2085
01:21:16,490 --> 01:21:14,640
many times I would go back into

2086
01:21:18,350 --> 01:21:16,500
parapsychology if that happened I mean

2087
01:21:20,630 --> 01:21:18,360
the fact is there is no viable Theory

2088
01:21:24,110 --> 01:21:20,640
within parapsychology of how this could

2089
01:21:26,270 --> 01:21:24,120
work and if there were evidence that it

2090
01:21:28,130 --> 01:21:26,280
did work you could start to do

2091
01:21:30,890 --> 01:21:28,140
experimental work to test theories but

2092
01:21:32,570 --> 01:21:30,900
that just hasn't happened so that's what

2093
01:21:34,610 --> 01:21:32,580
makes me kind of well it's not

2094
01:21:36,890 --> 01:21:34,620
pessimistic pessimistic about the

2095
01:21:39,290 --> 01:21:36,900
possibility of being found

2096
01:21:42,350 --> 01:21:39,300
um but I don't think it's going to

2097
01:21:43,970 --> 01:21:42,360
happen but we shall see and if it did I

2098
01:21:45,470 --> 01:21:43,980
still maintain it would have dramatic

2099
01:21:48,610 --> 01:21:45,480
effects on our understanding of all

2100
01:21:53,390 --> 01:21:51,050
another idealism it would be nothing

2101
01:21:56,149 --> 01:21:53,400
extraordinary yes the dissociative

2102
01:21:58,130 --> 01:21:56,159
boundary yeah what did you witness

2103
01:22:00,649 --> 01:21:58,140
Bernardo what did you witness and was

2104
01:22:03,610 --> 01:22:00,659
one of those I was in a

2105
01:22:06,350 --> 01:22:03,620
sure no no it was not understand

2106
01:22:08,030 --> 01:22:06,360
I was on a on a holiday with my

2107
01:22:10,669 --> 01:22:08,040
girlfriend we were sort of out of

2108
01:22:13,729 --> 01:22:10,679
civilization for one week you know in

2109
01:22:15,649 --> 01:22:13,739
Germany she's from Germany and um and we

2110
01:22:17,450 --> 01:22:15,659
were already out of contact with family

2111
01:22:18,830 --> 01:22:17,460
and friends for one week one day she

2112
01:22:21,530 --> 01:22:18,840
wakes up in the morning I was already

2113
01:22:24,050 --> 01:22:21,540
awake when she woke up and she says I

2114
01:22:26,450 --> 01:22:24,060
had a strange dream I saw my grandmother

2115
01:22:29,870 --> 01:22:26,460
with her head wrapped up in in gauze

2116
01:22:32,750 --> 01:22:29,880
case gauze in a hospital with her two

2117
01:22:34,550 --> 01:22:32,760
daughters on on her side nothing was

2118
01:22:36,110 --> 01:22:34,560
moving nothing was happening but they

2119
01:22:37,189 --> 01:22:36,120
could pick up from her thoughts that she

2120
01:22:39,350 --> 01:22:37,199
was okay

2121
01:22:41,450 --> 01:22:39,360
and then I was playing with interpreting

2122
01:22:43,430 --> 01:22:41,460
her dreams from a union perspective for

2123
01:22:45,410 --> 01:22:43,440
a while we were playing that game and

2124
01:22:48,470 --> 01:22:45,420
when she told me that I thought this

2125
01:22:50,149 --> 01:22:48,480
this is highly unusual and something

2126
01:22:53,149 --> 01:22:50,159
came into me and I said call your father

2127
01:22:55,189 --> 01:22:53,159
so she called her father and her

2128
01:22:57,110 --> 01:22:55,199
grandmother had three children two women

2129
01:23:01,430 --> 01:22:57,120
and her father

2130
01:23:03,830 --> 01:23:01,440
phone and said well good that you're

2131
01:23:06,050 --> 01:23:03,840
calling because in the middle of the

2132
01:23:09,110 --> 01:23:06,060
night no two or three hours ago before

2133
01:23:11,590 --> 01:23:09,120
she had woken up her grandmother had had

2134
01:23:14,630 --> 01:23:11,600
a brain stroke and was in the hospital

2135
01:23:16,910 --> 01:23:14,640
with her two daughters but the doctor

2136
01:23:18,830 --> 01:23:16,920
said although she couldn't speak yet the

2137
01:23:21,350 --> 01:23:18,840
doctor said she's not on their life on

2138
01:23:23,750 --> 01:23:21,360
the risk of life anymore and I thought

2139
01:23:28,130 --> 01:23:23,760
this is unprompted

2140
01:23:30,890 --> 01:23:28,140
so bloody specific that I thought okay

2141
01:23:32,750 --> 01:23:30,900
this [\h__\h] happens it's all right I can

2142
01:23:35,870 --> 01:23:32,760
live with it and I'm not abandoning

2143
01:23:40,070 --> 01:23:38,149
oh dear well I won't go through all my

2144
01:23:44,090 --> 01:23:40,080
usual reasons why those things happen

2145
01:23:45,770 --> 01:23:44,100
and how never mind now I know you got to

2146
01:23:47,390 --> 01:23:45,780
get going Sue but briefly I didn't get

2147
01:23:49,189 --> 01:23:47,400
bernardo's answer to that question of

2148
01:23:50,990 --> 01:23:49,199
what would cause him to reconsider or

2149
01:23:52,370 --> 01:23:51,000
not reconsider but actually move and

2150
01:23:53,750 --> 01:23:52,380
we're going to get to that but you

2151
01:23:55,010 --> 01:23:53,760
mentioned that you didn't see any

2152
01:23:57,050 --> 01:23:55,020
evidence and you know that there's

2153
01:23:58,990 --> 01:23:57,060
parapsychologists like Dean Rayden and

2154
01:24:02,090 --> 01:23:59,000
Julia

2155
01:24:04,130 --> 01:24:02,100
right and Daryl bem and I believe

2156
01:24:05,450 --> 01:24:04,140
Jeffrey mishlov is a cataloger rather

2157
01:24:07,610 --> 01:24:05,460
than a researcher but I could be

2158
01:24:09,530 --> 01:24:07,620
mistaken about that and Rupert sheldrake

2159
01:24:11,810 --> 01:24:09,540
so what do you make of their research

2160
01:24:14,870 --> 01:24:11,820
please uh this has to be for another

2161
01:24:18,350 --> 01:24:14,880
time uh it's there's so much to say and

2162
01:24:20,209 --> 01:24:18,360
I I'm tired now and I I really don't

2163
01:24:22,189 --> 01:24:20,219
want to have to do that fairly would be

2164
01:24:23,990 --> 01:24:22,199
very complex and it would involve a lot

2165
01:24:25,970 --> 01:24:24,000
of devious things that have gone on and

2166
01:24:28,310 --> 01:24:25,980
things I've discovered along the way and

2167
01:24:29,689 --> 01:24:28,320
it's another story okay but the point is

2168
01:24:31,729 --> 01:24:29,699
you've gone through their research and

2169
01:24:34,370 --> 01:24:31,739
it's not that you haven't seen them oh

2170
01:24:36,649 --> 01:24:34,380
God yes a lot not recently because I

2171
01:24:38,750 --> 01:24:36,659
gave up I really gave up doing

2172
01:24:40,790 --> 01:24:38,760
parapsychology around the turn of the

2173
01:24:42,770 --> 01:24:40,800
century and up until that time I would

2174
01:24:45,590 --> 01:24:42,780
have said that I was pretty much an

2175
01:24:46,729 --> 01:24:45,600
expert on the the literature that I you

2176
01:24:48,890 --> 01:24:46,739
know because I was really kept up with

2177
01:24:50,510 --> 01:24:48,900
it all since then I haven't so there may

2178
01:24:52,970 --> 01:24:50,520
have been things that have happened I

2179
01:24:54,590 --> 01:24:52,980
know vaguely about but to really examine

2180
01:24:56,810 --> 01:24:54,600
somebody's work and find out what was

2181
01:24:58,490 --> 01:24:56,820
going on takes a lot of effort arguably

2182
01:25:00,470 --> 01:24:58,500
it can take more time and effort than

2183
01:25:02,450 --> 01:25:00,480
doing the original research and I've

2184
01:25:04,310 --> 01:25:02,460
done a lot of that

2185
01:25:09,410 --> 01:25:04,320
um but it's a long story

2186
01:25:16,130 --> 01:25:13,070
you're asking me to hypothesize about

2187
01:25:18,350 --> 01:25:16,140
evidence that would convince me of an

2188
01:25:20,930 --> 01:25:18,360
unnecessary and problematic hypothesis

2189
01:25:22,550 --> 01:25:20,940
so this is how I hear it so you

2190
01:25:24,709 --> 01:25:22,560
understand how I experience the question

2191
01:25:26,930 --> 01:25:24,719
it's like somebody who is telling me the

2192
01:25:28,490 --> 01:25:26,940
Flying Spaghetti Monster exists and it

2193
01:25:30,470 --> 01:25:28,500
it's the thing responsible for making

2194
01:25:33,229 --> 01:25:30,480
the planets go around their orbits with

2195
01:25:35,510 --> 01:25:33,239
its invisible noodly appendages reaching

2196
01:25:38,410 --> 01:25:35,520
out from a higher Dimension so Bernardo

2197
01:25:41,450 --> 01:25:38,420
what evidence would you need

2198
01:25:43,310 --> 01:25:41,460
to to or I would ask this person what

2199
01:25:45,169 --> 01:25:43,320
evidence do you need to discard the

2200
01:25:48,590 --> 01:25:45,179
Flying Spaghetti Monster hypothesis it's

2201
01:25:52,450 --> 01:25:48,600
like you know what do you have to come

2202
01:25:54,590 --> 01:25:52,460
up with materialism is explanatory

2203
01:25:56,149 --> 01:25:54,600
dissatisfying doesn't explain experience

2204
01:25:58,310 --> 01:25:56,159
in other words there is a sense in which

2205
01:26:00,050 --> 01:25:58,320
you explain it explains nothing because

2206
01:26:03,050 --> 01:26:00,060
all of our knowledge is conveyed by

2207
01:26:05,689 --> 01:26:03,060
experience materialism is internally

2208
01:26:07,910 --> 01:26:05,699
contradictory it replaces descriptions

2209
01:26:10,010 --> 01:26:07,920
for the thing described and then tries

2210
01:26:12,169 --> 01:26:10,020
to recover the thing described from the

2211
01:26:14,030 --> 01:26:12,179
descriptions I mean it's like a dog

2212
01:26:17,270 --> 01:26:14,040
chasing its own tail at light speed and

2213
01:26:19,610 --> 01:26:17,280
hoping to catch it one day it is um

2214
01:26:21,590 --> 01:26:19,620
empirically inadequate and Nobel Prize

2215
01:26:23,390 --> 01:26:21,600
last year went to experiments that show

2216
01:26:26,090 --> 01:26:23,400
that physical entities do not have

2217
01:26:28,129 --> 01:26:26,100
Standalone existence unless you believe

2218
01:26:29,990 --> 01:26:28,139
in some science fiction stuff like

2219
01:26:32,330 --> 01:26:30,000
parallel universes popping out every

2220
01:26:34,310 --> 01:26:32,340
fraction of a second for no reason or if

2221
01:26:36,169 --> 01:26:34,320
you believe in the magical hidden

2222
01:26:38,149 --> 01:26:36,179
variables of super determinism that are

2223
01:26:39,590 --> 01:26:38,159
not even described enough for us to be

2224
01:26:41,629 --> 01:26:39,600
able to say what they they are supposed

2225
01:26:43,610 --> 01:26:41,639
to be they are defined in terms of what

2226
01:26:46,729 --> 01:26:43,620
they need to do for us to rescue

2227
01:26:49,610 --> 01:26:46,739
materialism from that so it's so

2228
01:26:51,950 --> 01:26:49,620
overwhelming the K is against it is so

2229
01:26:54,890 --> 01:26:51,960
overwhelming that if you and I know it's

2230
01:26:56,750 --> 01:26:54,900
a dissatisfactory answer but if you ask

2231
01:26:58,790 --> 01:26:56,760
me what would make you change your mind

2232
01:27:01,970 --> 01:26:58,800
it's like well I would need to be a

2233
01:27:04,129 --> 01:27:01,980
child again that's what it would take I

2234
01:27:07,250 --> 01:27:04,139
would need to not have the knowledge and

2235
01:27:10,490 --> 01:27:07,260
the understanding that I have today uh

2236
01:27:11,750 --> 01:27:10,500
because it's a purial hypo vertices and

2237
01:27:13,790 --> 01:27:11,760
it was from the beginning the difference

2238
01:27:16,070 --> 01:27:13,800
is that people knew in the beginning it

2239
01:27:19,010 --> 01:27:16,080
was a pure Royal hypothesis and they did

2240
01:27:20,930 --> 01:27:19,020
it anyway because it was a a weapon

2241
01:27:22,610 --> 01:27:20,940
against the church by the way the needy

2242
01:27:24,410 --> 01:27:22,620
the horizontal record one of the authors

2243
01:27:26,390 --> 01:27:24,420
of lion cyclopedia the founding document

2244
01:27:28,550 --> 01:27:26,400
of the Enlightenment his own record

2245
01:27:30,350 --> 01:27:28,560
saying materialism doesn't work but we

2246
01:27:32,629 --> 01:27:30,360
need to keep on using it as a weapon

2247
01:27:36,290 --> 01:27:32,639
against the church but at some point mid

2248
01:27:39,110 --> 01:27:36,300
19th century because of the you know the

2249
01:27:41,870 --> 01:27:39,120
the Bourgeois Revolution led by Darvin

2250
01:27:43,490 --> 01:27:41,880
and others we forgot that because we

2251
01:27:45,770 --> 01:27:43,500
wanted the intellectual Elite to have

2252
01:27:49,430 --> 01:27:45,780
not not only to survive the church but

2253
01:27:52,189 --> 01:27:49,440
to have a domain over the church as far

2254
01:27:54,770 --> 01:27:52,199
as the culture is concerned and then it

2255
01:27:56,510 --> 01:27:54,780
went sideways but to me it's like I

2256
01:27:58,850 --> 01:27:56,520
can't answer this question I would have

2257
01:28:02,510 --> 01:27:58,860
to unlearn what I have learned over 48

2258
01:28:04,310 --> 01:28:02,520
years to to tell you something it's a

2259
01:28:07,790 --> 01:28:04,320
more formed hypothesis it's not even

2260
01:28:10,370 --> 01:28:07,800
wrong it's inconsistent it it's a

2261
01:28:12,470 --> 01:28:10,380
catastrophe so we if you ask me what

2262
01:28:15,649 --> 01:28:12,480
make what would change my mind

2263
01:28:18,470 --> 01:28:15,659
about the Multiverse hypothesis that I

2264
01:28:20,990 --> 01:28:18,480
could tell you I could tell you about if

2265
01:28:23,270 --> 01:28:21,000
we had an event with Statistics behind

2266
01:28:25,610 --> 01:28:23,280
it at CERN

2267
01:28:28,610 --> 01:28:25,620
um in which the energy footprint exceeds

2268
01:28:29,990 --> 01:28:28,620
what we can account for under a Quantum

2269
01:28:32,390 --> 01:28:30,000
field Theory

2270
01:28:34,189 --> 01:28:32,400
then I would say okay there is a leakage

2271
01:28:36,290 --> 01:28:34,199
across dimensions and I would take that

2272
01:28:38,090 --> 01:28:36,300
hypothesis more seriously but if you ask

2273
01:28:40,729 --> 01:28:38,100
me what would make me take materialism

2274
01:28:42,830 --> 01:28:40,739
seriously it's like asking me what would

2275
01:28:45,290 --> 01:28:42,840
what would it take for me to take the

2276
01:28:46,669 --> 01:28:45,300
Flying Spaghetti Monster seriously I

2277
01:28:48,830 --> 01:28:46,679
don't know the Flying Spaghetti Monster

2278
01:28:52,070 --> 01:28:48,840
would have to show up in front of me

2279
01:28:53,930 --> 01:28:52,080
no oh I haven't on Heaven and Hell

2280
01:28:55,010 --> 01:28:53,940
what what could convince me that the

2281
01:28:57,770 --> 01:28:55,020
seven or Hell well near-death

2282
01:28:59,450 --> 01:28:57,780
experiences certainly won't yeah so yeah

2283
01:29:01,370 --> 01:28:59,460
sorry sorry it's a dissatisfying the

2284
01:29:04,310 --> 01:29:01,380
answer

2285
01:29:06,530 --> 01:29:04,320
all right thank you all thank you all so

2286
01:29:08,149 --> 01:29:06,540
much and thank you for coming on thank

2287
01:29:09,890 --> 01:29:08,159
you for coming on for your seventh or

2288
01:29:13,129 --> 01:29:09,900
eighth time Bernardo and thank you for

2289
01:29:14,090 --> 01:29:13,139
your premiere on toll Susan and

2290
01:29:16,510 --> 01:29:14,100
hopefully it's not your last time

2291
01:29:18,709 --> 01:29:16,520
hopefully we do a one-on-one as well

2292
01:29:21,530 --> 01:29:18,719
it's been a pleasure

2293
01:29:23,149 --> 01:29:21,540
thank you the podcast is now concluded

2294
01:29:24,709 --> 01:29:23,159
thank you for watching if you haven't

2295
01:29:26,510 --> 01:29:24,719
subscribed or clicked on that like

2296
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button now would be a great time to do

2297
01:29:31,490 --> 01:29:29,699
so as each subscribe and like helps

2298
01:29:33,350 --> 01:29:31,500
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2299
01:29:35,750 --> 01:29:33,360
you should also know that there's a

2300
01:29:37,310 --> 01:29:35,760
remarkably active Discord and subreddit

2301
01:29:39,590 --> 01:29:37,320
for theories of everything where people

2302
01:29:41,870 --> 01:29:39,600
explicate tolls disagree respectfully

2303
01:29:44,629 --> 01:29:41,880
about theories and build as a community

2304
01:29:46,550 --> 01:29:44,639
our own toes links to both are in the

2305
01:29:48,830 --> 01:29:46,560
description also I recently found out

2306
01:29:50,990 --> 01:29:48,840
that external links count plenty toward

2307
01:29:53,810 --> 01:29:51,000
the algorithm which means that when you

2308
01:29:55,970 --> 01:29:53,820
share on Twitter on Facebook on Reddit

2309
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Etc it shows YouTube that people are

2310
01:29:59,930 --> 01:29:57,840
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2311
01:30:01,729 --> 01:29:59,940
which in turn greatly AIDS the

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Distribution on YouTube as well if you'd

2313
01:30:05,709 --> 01:30:03,420
like to support more conversations like

2314
01:30:07,790 --> 01:30:05,719
this then do consider visiting

2315
01:30:10,070 --> 01:30:07,800
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2316
01:30:12,470 --> 01:30:10,080
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